Double-Super-Secret 5W-40 Audi RS4 Racing Oil
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""let alone say whether the non-bio components are used as base stocks or VIIs or serve some other function.""
Let me take a crack at it.
I'd say ester/AN for additive solubility since HOBO suck as far as any additive solubility goes.
PAO for thickening to hit vis grade if you could get them to solubilize.
VII perhaps to hit vis grade and PPD/crystal modifier since HOBO also suck at low temp fluidity.
HIGH amount of AO since HOBO also suck at oxidation resistence.
bruce
Let me take a crack at it.
I'd say ester/AN for additive solubility since HOBO suck as far as any additive solubility goes.
PAO for thickening to hit vis grade if you could get them to solubilize.
VII perhaps to hit vis grade and PPD/crystal modifier since HOBO also suck at low temp fluidity.
HIGH amount of AO since HOBO also suck at oxidation resistence.
bruce
bye the way LZ used to own a company that made/marketed high oleic sunflower oils, they got out of it.
bruce
bruce
search for "Sunyl"
Unfortunately, you are only about 25% correct. But heck, keep guessing with authority. As an old boss of mine once said to me:
"Scott, even a blind squirrel runs into an acorn every once in a while."
"Scott, even a blind squirrel runs into an acorn every once in a while."
""you are only about 25% correct""
Well I disagree but without a sample it is a GUESS.
As is your answer.
"Scott, even a blind squirrel runs into an acorn every once in a while."
I do wear glasses and you can add fat and bald I do wish you well on your High OBO deal I do think that HOBO do have very good properties and some Bad properties and the fact that this is NOT even 50% HOBO shows that but good luck, with some treaks you may get a very good but exspensive NON tradional oil.
bruce
Well I disagree but without a sample it is a GUESS.
As is your answer.
"Scott, even a blind squirrel runs into an acorn every once in a while."
I do wear glasses and you can add fat and bald I do wish you well on your High OBO deal I do think that HOBO do have very good properties and some Bad properties and the fact that this is NOT even 50% HOBO shows that but good luck, with some treaks you may get a very good but exspensive NON tradional oil.
bruce
As a side note 10-15 years ago I did field testing of High Oleic Safflower (80% or so) oil before anyone had heard of it.
Ee found that the straight oil (no Additives) at a ISO vis of about 38, had as good of wear protection as a fully fomulated Hydro oil that would normally contain
about 500 ppm ZN.
In fact today I and a lot of other blenders use this HOBO in some cutting oils to help replace things like sulfur, ZDDP and chlor additives.
IMHO they give lower wear rates than any of the popular esters used in PCMO's.
BUT lousy, oxidation, low temp properties and additive solubility means that to formulate them you must add in a "solventy" component such as a GPI oil or a ester and then AO and PPD.
This is why your double secret oil has apperently 25% add Pak and only 30-40% HOBO.
But that is OK I just think that the enherent problems with this base stock will not allow a full pass on SM or qualify for LONG dains and still stay clean but then again what do I know.
bruce
Ee found that the straight oil (no Additives) at a ISO vis of about 38, had as good of wear protection as a fully fomulated Hydro oil that would normally contain
about 500 ppm ZN.
In fact today I and a lot of other blenders use this HOBO in some cutting oils to help replace things like sulfur, ZDDP and chlor additives.
IMHO they give lower wear rates than any of the popular esters used in PCMO's.
BUT lousy, oxidation, low temp properties and additive solubility means that to formulate them you must add in a "solventy" component such as a GPI oil or a ester and then AO and PPD.
This is why your double secret oil has apperently 25% add Pak and only 30-40% HOBO.
But that is OK I just think that the enherent problems with this base stock will not allow a full pass on SM or qualify for LONG dains and still stay clean but then again what do I know.
bruce
You know a blody site more than me mate! Cheers..s
Bruce
Actually, I do know quite a bit more about the oil than has been revealed by Terry on BITOG, and my statement that you are about 25% accurate in your assumptions stands.
As for extended drains. We're currently running 5K drains on the BioSyn oil in my engine, which is probably one of the harshest environments around, and included 2 1/2 hours at full power on the track at Lime Rock. (The RS4 V8 produces 420 HP at 7800 rpm, with a 8250 rpm redline. Oil temperatures in normal driving typically run 220F, with track oil temperature running about 260F. I am not gentle with my engine, which Terry can attest to.) Oxidation, Nitration, and soot analysis numbers are extremely low. Normal (non-track) operation should give us at least a 7K OCI. I would have run longer, but we have a tweaked formulation that Terry wanted me to try that he believes may be good for close to a 10K OCI.
For a point of reference, Audi 502.00 approved oils, when operating in this engine, have a life of about 3K miles before the oil has diluted and sheered to the point that it is dangerous, with incremental wear numbers that start heading off the chart, and flashpoint dropping near the operating temperature of the oil.
As for cost, this oil is less expensive than the Motul I was using previously. At this point, BioSyn has greater than twice the life expectancy of 502 oils and is less than twice the cost of the least expensive 502 oils. 502 oils generally range from $5 to $12/Qt in price. The most expensive BioSyn blend is less than $10/Qt. So from a cost/OCI point of view, Renewable Lubes Biosyn is the least expensive alternative. If we look at wear and engine cleaning performance, then it just blows away all other oils, IMO.
Actually, I do know quite a bit more about the oil than has been revealed by Terry on BITOG, and my statement that you are about 25% accurate in your assumptions stands.
As for extended drains. We're currently running 5K drains on the BioSyn oil in my engine, which is probably one of the harshest environments around, and included 2 1/2 hours at full power on the track at Lime Rock. (The RS4 V8 produces 420 HP at 7800 rpm, with a 8250 rpm redline. Oil temperatures in normal driving typically run 220F, with track oil temperature running about 260F. I am not gentle with my engine, which Terry can attest to.) Oxidation, Nitration, and soot analysis numbers are extremely low. Normal (non-track) operation should give us at least a 7K OCI. I would have run longer, but we have a tweaked formulation that Terry wanted me to try that he believes may be good for close to a 10K OCI.
For a point of reference, Audi 502.00 approved oils, when operating in this engine, have a life of about 3K miles before the oil has diluted and sheered to the point that it is dangerous, with incremental wear numbers that start heading off the chart, and flashpoint dropping near the operating temperature of the oil.
As for cost, this oil is less expensive than the Motul I was using previously. At this point, BioSyn has greater than twice the life expectancy of 502 oils and is less than twice the cost of the least expensive 502 oils. 502 oils generally range from $5 to $12/Qt in price. The most expensive BioSyn blend is less than $10/Qt. So from a cost/OCI point of view, Renewable Lubes Biosyn is the least expensive alternative. If we look at wear and engine cleaning performance, then it just blows away all other oils, IMO.
I'm glad its working well for you at >$9.00 quart it should.
bruce
bruce
Slightly OT, but I beg to differ as far as "harshest environment" is concerned. A V8 around town is probably very easy on oil. Why someone has to drive V8 crazily is beyond me. But you better have a fat wallet for all the insurance spikes due to speeding tickets.
Quote:
Slightly OT, but I beg to differ as far as "harshest environment" is concerned. A V8 around town is probably very easy on oil. Why someone has to drive V8 crazily is beyond me. But you better have a fat wallet for all the insurance spikes due to speeding tickets.
If he owns an RS4, he probably has a fat wallet.
Seth
as far as degrading oil is concerned, this engine has a record of destroying some of the best of oils in less than 3000 miles.
As for tickets, Zero.
as far as degrading oil is concerned, this engine has a record of destroying some of the best of oils in less than 3000 miles.
As for tickets, Zero.
You know Audi did tons of development testing on this engine before putting it into production which means they had to know how hard it would be on the oil. One can't help but wonder why they would green light an engine that will self-destruct at a relatively early age if the specified oil and oil change intervals are followed.
Bruce, as you know, there is often no correlation between the cost of an oil and it's performance. Other oils that were much more expensive, several Motul types including Etech and 300V, have proven to have poor performance.
I'd pay whatever it takes to keep a $30K engine from destroying itself. However, if I could find a less expensive alternative, I would be happy to use it. Here are the list of oils that have failed to perform well in this engine:
Castrol Syntec 5W-40
Mobil 1 0W-40
Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40
Motul 8100 Etech 0W-40
Motul Xcess 5W-40
Motul V300 5W-40
Amsoil Euro 5W-40
Several owners are trying Lubromoly 5W-40 and Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40, although I don't expect the results will be any better. Another owner of a similar engine is trying Redline 5W-40.
Bruce, I don't mean to be argumentative, but I take exception to your sweeping assumptions and declarations about the composition and performance of BioSyn, without any first hand knowledge of the oil. I know that you want to believe that the HOBS component of the oil is the same as you may have tested years ago. My understanding is that it is not. But, there are other components in the blend, some obvious, some non-obvious, that lead to the performance we are seeing, and Terry is talking about.
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