what on average 15 CST difference at operating temp. What is it at 40c like 60cst. All engines have to deal with great swings in thickness over hundreds of hours during its lifespan. What I'm saying is can 10 or 15 cst really make that big of a difference in this application. 8.7 vs 10.2 or whatever at 100c. I don't know. I honestly think the additive package has more to do with reducing abrasive damage than the slight thickness difference were talking about here.
Don't want to blame oil but I notice a trend
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It's been stated also that a lot of overseas specs for thicker oils in our 5w-20 cars have more to do with non availability of certain thinner grades there.
Here's an excerpt from a recent paper on lubrication and friction reduction:
For this lubricated component, we can observe that a decrease in oil viscosity will translate Stribeck’s curve towards the right. This translation gives a lower global friction torque. However, the bearing will operate longer in a mixed lubrication regime, which means more microscopic contact occurrences take place between the shaft and bearing surface. The consequences are higher temperatures, higher wear rates and higher hydrodynamic pressure peaks. Thus, the rule to maintain reliable bearing is as follows: a viscosity decrease must be associated with bearing performance improvement. This improvement will be characterized with better resistance to wear and fatigue.
In a typical seizure graph, the probability of a bearing seizing to the shaft (and therefor spinning in its mount) goes up with increase in tolerance and speed. The only remedy is to renew the bearing, or increase the viscosity to increase oil film thickness. Anyone running older technologies should be looking at viscosity as a crutch for wear in bearings as they age. Aging bearings with accumulated wear are not "improving" over time ...
For this lubricated component, we can observe that a decrease in oil viscosity will translate Stribeck’s curve towards the right. This translation gives a lower global friction torque. However, the bearing will operate longer in a mixed lubrication regime, which means more microscopic contact occurrences take place between the shaft and bearing surface. The consequences are higher temperatures, higher wear rates and higher hydrodynamic pressure peaks. Thus, the rule to maintain reliable bearing is as follows: a viscosity decrease must be associated with bearing performance improvement. This improvement will be characterized with better resistance to wear and fatigue.
In a typical seizure graph, the probability of a bearing seizing to the shaft (and therefor spinning in its mount) goes up with increase in tolerance and speed. The only remedy is to renew the bearing, or increase the viscosity to increase oil film thickness. Anyone running older technologies should be looking at viscosity as a crutch for wear in bearings as they age. Aging bearings with accumulated wear are not "improving" over time ...
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Originally Posted By: Ifixyawata
It's been stated also that a lot of overseas specs for thicker oils in our 5w-20 cars have more to do with non availability of certain thinner grades there.
Not true ....
http://contests-events2u.weebly.com/uploads/7/9/0/1/7901491/5263911_orig.png
It's been stated also that a lot of overseas specs for thicker oils in our 5w-20 cars have more to do with non availability of certain thinner grades there.
Not true ....
http://contests-events2u.weebly.com/uploads/7/9/0/1/7901491/5263911_orig.png
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Here's an excerpt from a recent paper on lubrication and friction reduction:
For this lubricated component, we can observe that a decrease in oil viscosity will translate Stribeck’s curve towards the right. This translation gives a lower global friction torque. However, the bearing will operate longer in a mixed lubrication regime, which means more microscopic contact occurrences take place between the shaft and bearing surface. The consequences are higher temperatures, higher wear rates and higher hydrodynamic pressure peaks. Thus, the rule to maintain reliable bearing is as follows: a viscosity decrease must be associated with bearing performance improvement. This improvement will be characterized with better resistance to wear and fatigue.
In a typical seizure graph, the probability of a bearing seizing to the shaft (and therefor spinning in its mount) goes up with increase in tolerance and speed. The only remedy is to renew the bearing, or increase the viscosity to increase oil film thickness. Anyone running older technologies should be looking at viscosity as a crutch for wear in bearings as they age. Aging bearings with accumulated wear are not "improving" over time ...
+1
Plain bearings are designed for full film hydrodynamic lubrications. Period.
Here's an excerpt from a recent paper on lubrication and friction reduction:
For this lubricated component, we can observe that a decrease in oil viscosity will translate Stribeck’s curve towards the right. This translation gives a lower global friction torque. However, the bearing will operate longer in a mixed lubrication regime, which means more microscopic contact occurrences take place between the shaft and bearing surface. The consequences are higher temperatures, higher wear rates and higher hydrodynamic pressure peaks. Thus, the rule to maintain reliable bearing is as follows: a viscosity decrease must be associated with bearing performance improvement. This improvement will be characterized with better resistance to wear and fatigue.
In a typical seizure graph, the probability of a bearing seizing to the shaft (and therefor spinning in its mount) goes up with increase in tolerance and speed. The only remedy is to renew the bearing, or increase the viscosity to increase oil film thickness. Anyone running older technologies should be looking at viscosity as a crutch for wear in bearings as they age. Aging bearings with accumulated wear are not "improving" over time ...
+1
Plain bearings are designed for full film hydrodynamic lubrications. Period.
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Ifixyawata
It's been stated also that a lot of overseas specs for thicker oils in our 5w-20 cars have more to do with non availability of certain thinner grades there.
Not true ....
http://contests-events2u.weebly.com/uploads/7/9/0/1/7901491/5263911_orig.png
Yeah I ran across mention of TGMO just a bit ago, also. Oh well, that's why I said it'd been stated, I guess the statement was incorrect.
All this thick oil talk makes me wish I could find the Youtube video where the guy custom-mixes his own motor oil in a 5 gal bucket. It includes various grades of Super Tech oils (20w-50, 15w-40 and 10w-30 I think) and a couple small bottles of the super-thick STP stuff. He mixes and uses it in his early 2000's F-150. The comments section reads like one of these threads.
Originally Posted By: Ifixyawata
It's been stated also that a lot of overseas specs for thicker oils in our 5w-20 cars have more to do with non availability of certain thinner grades there.
Not true ....
http://contests-events2u.weebly.com/uploads/7/9/0/1/7901491/5263911_orig.png
Yeah I ran across mention of TGMO just a bit ago, also. Oh well, that's why I said it'd been stated, I guess the statement was incorrect.
All this thick oil talk makes me wish I could find the Youtube video where the guy custom-mixes his own motor oil in a 5 gal bucket. It includes various grades of Super Tech oils (20w-50, 15w-40 and 10w-30 I think) and a couple small bottles of the super-thick STP stuff. He mixes and uses it in his early 2000's F-150. The comments section reads like one of these threads.
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
In a typical seizure graph, the probability of a bearing seizing to the shaft (and therefor spinning in its mount) goes up with increase in tolerance and speed. The only remedy is to renew the bearing, or increase the viscosity to increase oil film thickness. Anyone running older technologies should be looking at viscosity as a crutch for wear in bearings as they age. Aging bearings with accumulated wear are not "improving" over time ...
Correct me if I am wrong here, but you seem to be mixing the two situations together--older equipment not specified to use xW-20 versus newer equipment that is. I do not recall anyone suggesting that you take a 1970s or 1980s engine that is not specified to use xW-20, start using xW-20 in it and expect everything to be fine. OTOH, an engine that is specified to use xW-20 does not experience the issue that you are describing here--at least not for hundreds of thousands of miles as shown by Toyota and Ford engines that literally have hundreds of thousands of miles on them while using xW-20. It begs the question just how long is good enough and would it make any difference in the life of the said engine if xW-30 had been used instead. What is the expectation of engine life? 300,00 miles, 600,000 miles or somewhere in between?
In a typical seizure graph, the probability of a bearing seizing to the shaft (and therefor spinning in its mount) goes up with increase in tolerance and speed. The only remedy is to renew the bearing, or increase the viscosity to increase oil film thickness. Anyone running older technologies should be looking at viscosity as a crutch for wear in bearings as they age. Aging bearings with accumulated wear are not "improving" over time ...
Correct me if I am wrong here, but you seem to be mixing the two situations together--older equipment not specified to use xW-20 versus newer equipment that is. I do not recall anyone suggesting that you take a 1970s or 1980s engine that is not specified to use xW-20, start using xW-20 in it and expect everything to be fine. OTOH, an engine that is specified to use xW-20 does not experience the issue that you are describing here--at least not for hundreds of thousands of miles as shown by Toyota and Ford engines that literally have hundreds of thousands of miles on them while using xW-20. It begs the question just how long is good enough and would it make any difference in the life of the said engine if xW-30 had been used instead. What is the expectation of engine life? 300,00 miles, 600,000 miles or somewhere in between?
Somewhere in between ... And I don't ever suggest going up from xW-20 to the next higher viscosity until the engine has reached the first 100,000 miles.
Listen to the motor and find what oil keeps it the quietest within reason at or just above the original oil spec. At 100K it is out of warranty and out of spec for the original bearing clearance... Step up one viscosity.
At around 180~200K it'll likely need to step up again ...
I do run my engines to over 200K w/o rebuild. 300 if I can get there... But often times the upper ends won't make that (usually valves...). And few timing chains will go that far ...
And, there are a lot of folks here who are eagerly awaiting some OEM to "back-spec" their engine to 5W-20 while they are driving it and opening up the clearances. They are going the wrong way... They think they will be saving fuel (?), but at the cost of shorter engine life
Listen to the motor and find what oil keeps it the quietest within reason at or just above the original oil spec. At 100K it is out of warranty and out of spec for the original bearing clearance... Step up one viscosity.
At around 180~200K it'll likely need to step up again ...
I do run my engines to over 200K w/o rebuild. 300 if I can get there... But often times the upper ends won't make that (usually valves...). And few timing chains will go that far ...
And, there are a lot of folks here who are eagerly awaiting some OEM to "back-spec" their engine to 5W-20 while they are driving it and opening up the clearances. They are going the wrong way... They think they will be saving fuel (?), but at the cost of shorter engine life
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Why would I listen to you saying I need to step up TWICE in oil grade to make it to 300k?
My Mazda went 345k on 5 or 10w30 its whole life. My Mom's Nissan the same. My sister's 4runner, the same.
No valve issues. Nissan has a chain, others belts. No issues. No need to thicken the oil with miles.
Sounds like your "plan" isn't very good if you have timing chain and valve issues, while my anecdotal evidence do not.
You're an awesome internet expert, though. Keep it up, you'll fit right in.
My Mazda went 345k on 5 or 10w30 its whole life. My Mom's Nissan the same. My sister's 4runner, the same.
No valve issues. Nissan has a chain, others belts. No issues. No need to thicken the oil with miles.
Sounds like your "plan" isn't very good if you have timing chain and valve issues, while my anecdotal evidence do not.
You're an awesome internet expert, though. Keep it up, you'll fit right in.
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Somewhere in between ... And I don't ever suggest going up from xW-20 to the next higher viscosity until the engine has reached the first 100,000 miles.
Listen to the motor and find what oil keeps it the quietest within reason at or just above the original oil spec. At 100K it is out of warranty and out of spec for the original bearing clearance... Step up one viscosity.
At around 180~200K it'll likely need to step up again ...
I do run my engines to over 200K w/o rebuild. 300 if I can get there... But often times the upper ends won't make that (usually valves...). And few timing chains will go that far ...
And, there are a lot of folks here who are eagerly awaiting some OEM to "back-spec" their engine to 5W-20 while they are driving it and opening up the clearances. They are going the wrong way... They think they will be saving fuel (?), but at the cost of shorter engine life
You haven't got a clue,just as I thought.
Somewhere in between ... And I don't ever suggest going up from xW-20 to the next higher viscosity until the engine has reached the first 100,000 miles.
Listen to the motor and find what oil keeps it the quietest within reason at or just above the original oil spec. At 100K it is out of warranty and out of spec for the original bearing clearance... Step up one viscosity.
At around 180~200K it'll likely need to step up again ...
I do run my engines to over 200K w/o rebuild. 300 if I can get there... But often times the upper ends won't make that (usually valves...). And few timing chains will go that far ...
And, there are a lot of folks here who are eagerly awaiting some OEM to "back-spec" their engine to 5W-20 while they are driving it and opening up the clearances. They are going the wrong way... They think they will be saving fuel (?), but at the cost of shorter engine life
You haven't got a clue,just as I thought.
Really ...
Just because a Mazda went the distance, or a Nissan, does not mean the other 200 brands out there will. Japanese designed and built engines are the exception, not the norm worldwide.
How long do you think you can run an SBC, a SBF or a Dodge 318?
And Surfstar (really?) you already made my case. Your example went the distance on xW-30, not xW-20 ...
How many Eurospec cars and trucks are getting xW-20 in Europe, Asia, Oz, or Russia? Heck, how many USA specs cars sold there are getting xW-20 ...
And RazorsEdge, I see in your sig that yours are getting xW-30 too... Who's not making their case ...
Just because a Mazda went the distance, or a Nissan, does not mean the other 200 brands out there will. Japanese designed and built engines are the exception, not the norm worldwide.
How long do you think you can run an SBC, a SBF or a Dodge 318?
And Surfstar (really?) you already made my case. Your example went the distance on xW-30, not xW-20 ...
How many Eurospec cars and trucks are getting xW-20 in Europe, Asia, Oz, or Russia? Heck, how many USA specs cars sold there are getting xW-20 ...
And RazorsEdge, I see in your sig that yours are getting xW-30 too... Who's not making their case ...
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
At 100K it is out of warranty and out of spec for the original bearing clearance...
Sorry, but this is a guess at best. I ran 5W-20 for the first 100K in my old FX4 and then went to 0W-20 for the next 60K before I traded it in on a larger truck--all the while towing and using the truck as a truck. Unless you are consistently tearing the bottom end apart on an engine and checking the clearances, you have no basis to state you need to increase the viscosity due to the bearings increasing clearances--this sounds like a throwback from the 1960s and 70s.
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
They are going the wrong way... They think they will be saving fuel (?), but at the cost of shorter engine life
I would only agree with this if it were an engine that was not specified to use xW-20 at the onset. How many engines which are specified for it have experienced shorter engine life on xW-20 and shorter than what?
At 100K it is out of warranty and out of spec for the original bearing clearance...
Sorry, but this is a guess at best. I ran 5W-20 for the first 100K in my old FX4 and then went to 0W-20 for the next 60K before I traded it in on a larger truck--all the while towing and using the truck as a truck. Unless you are consistently tearing the bottom end apart on an engine and checking the clearances, you have no basis to state you need to increase the viscosity due to the bearings increasing clearances--this sounds like a throwback from the 1960s and 70s.
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
They are going the wrong way... They think they will be saving fuel (?), but at the cost of shorter engine life
I would only agree with this if it were an engine that was not specified to use xW-20 at the onset. How many engines which are specified for it have experienced shorter engine life on xW-20 and shorter than what?
I'm gonna believe 2015_PSD and his real world data and FACTS over here say any day. Nothing wrong with any 0w20 or 5w20 or even 0w30
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
How many Eurospec cars and trucks are getting xW-20 in Europe, Asia, Oz, or Russia? Heck, how many USA specs cars sold there are getting xW-20 ...
Most brand new Eurospec cars in Malaysia , if not all ,spec'ed xxW40.
There are Toyota SC that provides xxW30 as options.
How many Eurospec cars and trucks are getting xW-20 in Europe, Asia, Oz, or Russia? Heck, how many USA specs cars sold there are getting xW-20 ...
Most brand new Eurospec cars in Malaysia , if not all ,spec'ed xxW40.
There are Toyota SC that provides xxW30 as options.
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Really ...
Just because a Mazda went the distance, or a Nissan, does not mean the other 200 brands out there will. Japanese designed and built engines are the exception, not the norm worldwide.
How long do you think you can run an SBC, a SBF or a Dodge 318?
And Surfstar (really?) you already made my case. Your example went the distance on xW-30, not xW-20 ...
How many Eurospec cars and trucks are getting xW-20 in Europe, Asia, Oz, or Russia? Heck, how many USA specs cars sold there are getting xW-20 ...
And RazorsEdge, I see in your sig that yours are getting xW-30 too... Who's not making their case ...
First you need to follow along better as I said earlier in this thread.
Originally Posted By: RazorsEdge
We've got a 96 Crown Vic 4.6 motor with 300,xxx miles sitting in the garage thats had nothing but 5w20/30 weight oil since we bought it at an auction,and it's reliable enough to take on any trip day or night,no unusual sounds under acceleration,etc.
We've got a Ford Explorer with 200,000 miles on the factory stock 4.0 V6 that has used 5w30 since it rolled off the show room floor.
No need of heavier oils in either vehicle.
We've used both 5w20 weight and 5w30 weight oil in our Crown Victoria. We're currently running 5w20 right now,If you'd like I could snap a photo of our odometer in the Crown Vic to prove a motor can run perfectly fine on a 5w20 or 5w30 weight oil for 200,000 miles or more.
Thanks for playing, try again.
Really ...
Just because a Mazda went the distance, or a Nissan, does not mean the other 200 brands out there will. Japanese designed and built engines are the exception, not the norm worldwide.
How long do you think you can run an SBC, a SBF or a Dodge 318?
And Surfstar (really?) you already made my case. Your example went the distance on xW-30, not xW-20 ...
How many Eurospec cars and trucks are getting xW-20 in Europe, Asia, Oz, or Russia? Heck, how many USA specs cars sold there are getting xW-20 ...
And RazorsEdge, I see in your sig that yours are getting xW-30 too... Who's not making their case ...
First you need to follow along better as I said earlier in this thread.
Originally Posted By: RazorsEdge
We've got a 96 Crown Vic 4.6 motor with 300,xxx miles sitting in the garage thats had nothing but 5w20/30 weight oil since we bought it at an auction,and it's reliable enough to take on any trip day or night,no unusual sounds under acceleration,etc.
We've got a Ford Explorer with 200,000 miles on the factory stock 4.0 V6 that has used 5w30 since it rolled off the show room floor.
No need of heavier oils in either vehicle.
We've used both 5w20 weight and 5w30 weight oil in our Crown Victoria. We're currently running 5w20 right now,If you'd like I could snap a photo of our odometer in the Crown Vic to prove a motor can run perfectly fine on a 5w20 or 5w30 weight oil for 200,000 miles or more.
Thanks for playing, try again.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I saw that Ford is saying that you can run 10w40 in the 5.4 motor to quiet it down. Nothing wrong with heavier oil. My 46 Fords purr on 10w30. Too many people on here don't really know oil, they just use what the manual says and use a engine maker as their backup. If a lot more people actually experimented, I think a lot less would be using thin oil.
So you think the common non-engine designing person knows more about the oil that the vehicle takes than the manufacturer?
I am saying if some of these faithful manual readers would venture off the plantation, now they they proved the world isn't flat and try some different grades. They would find these arguments fruitless and see their engines actually do run quieter on heavier oils and it effects their fuel very little. They are just too scared. The manual monster will find them and eat them.
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I saw that Ford is saying that you can run 10w40 in the 5.4 motor to quiet it down. Nothing wrong with heavier oil. My 46 Fords purr on 10w30. Too many people on here don't really know oil, they just use what the manual says and use a engine maker as their backup. If a lot more people actually experimented, I think a lot less would be using thin oil.
So you think the common non-engine designing person knows more about the oil that the vehicle takes than the manufacturer?
I am saying if some of these faithful manual readers would venture off the plantation, now they they proved the world isn't flat and try some different grades. They would find these arguments fruitless and see their engines actually do run quieter on heavier oils and it effects their fuel very little. They are just too scared. The manual monster will find them and eat them.
What really kills me is when I see someone on here running 5w20 oil and saying it uses oil. about a qt between changes or more. Go thicker, go thicker until it stops. Some people are truly terrified of thick oils. 15w40 was originally designed for mixed fleets-gas and diesel. I can tell you my dad used 15w40 in everything growing up, because that's what he bought by the drum, in cold Pennsylvania winters and everything started fine and ran fine until he traded it. It made no difference. We ran it in pick-ups, cars, motorcycles, coal trucks, atvs etc.. 15w40 is truly the universal oil and was designed to be. Café doesn't care for it much though.
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I am saying if some of these faithful manual readers would venture off the plantation, now they they proved the world isn't flat and try some different grades. They would find these arguments fruitless and see their engines actually do run quieter on heavier oils and it effects their fuel very little. They are just too scared. The manual monster will find them and eat them.
The manual monster is real and living ..... and powderful..... in US?
Oooohh .... SC here provides xW20; xW30 and occasionally xW40.
I am saying if some of these faithful manual readers would venture off the plantation, now they they proved the world isn't flat and try some different grades. They would find these arguments fruitless and see their engines actually do run quieter on heavier oils and it effects their fuel very little. They are just too scared. The manual monster will find them and eat them.
The manual monster is real and living ..... and powderful..... in US?
Oooohh .... SC here provides xW20; xW30 and occasionally xW40.
wemay
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Originally Posted By: Hyundai Owners Manual (both vehicles)
Engine oil viscosity has an effect on fuel economy and cold weather operation (engine start and oil flowability). Lower viscosity engine oils can provide better fuel economy and cold weather performance, however, higher viscosity engine oils are required for satisfactory lubrication in hot weather...
My "Manual monster" isn't a tyrant and i doubt anyone elses is.
Engine oil viscosity has an effect on fuel economy and cold weather operation (engine start and oil flowability). Lower viscosity engine oils can provide better fuel economy and cold weather performance, however, higher viscosity engine oils are required for satisfactory lubrication in hot weather...
My "Manual monster" isn't a tyrant and i doubt anyone elses is.
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