Don't want to blame oil but I notice a trend

[4wheeldog]

I guess the logical question is......Where does it stop?
If thicker is better, we should all run at least 40 in our vehicles that specify 30. And if 40 is better, 50 must be even more gooder.

There is logic in the manufacturer's specifications, at least most of the time. If you engine specced for 20 is noisy, by all means try 30. But half the folks posting on this thread think that nobody should use 20. What will they be saying when 8 and 16 are commonly specced?

 

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I saw that Ford is saying that you can run 10w40 in the 5.4 motor to quiet it down. Nothing wrong with heavier oil. My 46 Fords purr on 10w30. Too many people on here don't really know oil, they just use what the manual says and use a engine maker as their backup. If a lot more people actually experimented, I think a lot less would be using thin oil.


So you think the common non-engine designing person knows more about the oil that the vehicle takes than the manufacturer?

 

[BrocLuno]

I don't own any modular engines, or direct injection, or ...

All my stuff is based on last century technology (Jag 6, BBC's, 5.0 Fords - all currently over 100K, some over 200K ...). If those motors are making noise it ain't right

xW-40 is fine for where I live. Summer heats over 100* and winters seldom below 30*. Make them quiet and they run a long time (as they have). Listen to them bang and rattle, they'll die before 200K.

It's been that way for close to going on 100 years. Yeah, it's "anecdotal" but the preponderance of dead motors early is laying at the feet of thin oils going back to the 1960's. Start them on 10W-30 and switch up to 10W-40 (or HDE0) at 100K and keep on driving.

That regimen has been working for me for 6 decades and maybe approaching 50 vehicles (not counting bikes & boats). If they died I either wrecked them or blew them up racing. If I drove them like a "average Joe" they'll all run (or have run) beyond 200K, some getting close to 300K on original engine ...

The 0W-20 and 5W-20 stuff has been around in general use how long?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I don't own any modular engines, or direct injection, or ...

All my stuff is based on last century technology (Jag 6, BBC's, 5.0 Fords - all currently over 100K, some over 200K ...). If those motors are making noise it ain't right

xW-40 is fine for where I live. Summer heats over 100* and winters seldom below 30*. Make them quiet and they run a long time (as they have). Listen to them bang and rattle, they'll die before 200K.

It's been that way for close to going on 100 years. Yeah, it's "anecdotal" but the preponderance of dead motors early is laying at the feet of thin oils going back to the 1960's. Start them on 10W-30 and switch up to 10W-40 (or HDE0) at 100K and keep on driving.

That regimen has been working for me for 6 decades and maybe approaching 50 vehicles (not counting bikes & boats). If they died I either wrecked them or blew them up racing. If I drove them like a "average Joe" they'll all run (or have run) beyond 200K, some getting close to 300K on original engine ...

The 0W-20 and 5W-20 stuff has been around in general use how long?


Hearing is one of the best tools for diagnosing a problem. If I have abnormal sounds coming from my engine, and changing the grade or brand of oil improves it, that's the oil I'm sticking with.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Yeah, it's "anecdotal" but the preponderance of dead motors early is laying at the feet of thin oils going back to the 1960's.
Laying at the feet of thin oils in the '60s? You mean laying at the feet of carbureted engines and tons of fuel dilution? **Most** engines in the '60s and '70s were toast by 150K, sludged up and smoking due to the fuel dilution and lower quality oils--no matter what the grade. This is not the case today where engines are just broken in at 100K. At 160K, my Ford Modular 5.4L ran just as good as when it was new, this was not the case with my 1972 Ford 351C at 125K--it just did not run as strong as it did when new. For that matter, any of the motors of that era--if you had one last over 150K, you REALLY did something to make it that far).

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
If I drove them like a "average Joe" they'll all run (or have run) beyond 200K, some getting close to 300K on original engine.
There are plenty of engines using xW-20 that have done that and more, so what does this prove?

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
The 0W-20 and 5W-20 stuff has been around in general use how long?
Long enough to have millions of engines running on it and if it were that problematic there would be an Internet frenzy over it by now.

 

[surfstar]

When can we declare thick vs thin as R/S/P and lock these stupid threads?

 

[Sunnyinhollister]

Ford's modular motors are known for bad cam phasers. The grade of oil has nothing to do with it.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

Originally Posted By: surfstar
When can we declare thick vs thin as R/S/P and lock these stupid threads?


My guess is not until the following happens:

1)They build an online altar for 5w-30 or above with no HTHS under 3.0

2)People become so rabid about this idea that they describe in detail dry humping the bottles in private moments.

3)They say things like "This 8.0 viscosity at 210 degrees wouldn't happen if Trump was President!!"....Until that time, I'm afraid it'll always be with us.

 

[BrocLuno]

Looks like this is a "Red" "Blue" thing... Viscosity is fundamental element of choosing and oil.

How you going to change my mind when I doubt you been here as long as I been driving and rebuilding engines ...

There is a place for each oil. 20W-50 in the Harley. HDEO or HM in a high mileage conventional V-8. Race Oil in the giddy-up. 2-T in the dirt bikes.

Ain't no one size fits all. Never was. Never will be.

xW-20's belong in cars in Canada/Alaska/Wisconsin or under warranty and maybe a few out of warranty...

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
How you going to change my mind when I doubt you been here as long as I been driving and rebuilding engines.
Laughable, but back on topic...

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Ain't no one size fits all. Never was. Never will be.
No one here said that it is a "one size fits all", the argument lies in the fact there are some suggesting that in an engine that was specified to use xW-20 a thicker oil is somehow "better". I challenge you to prove that--and be sure to define the criteria that establishes better.

 

[Ifixyawata]

The idea that engines have a finite lifespan uing 5w-20 seems to be perpetuated by some folks, like all engines don't eventually wear and wear out. Whereas using 5w or even better 10w-30 will ensure 500k+ before any real wear occurs. Maybe that's a stretch but when I first searched out this oft-discussed topic I felt as though I was really short sighted and doing my car a disservice by using the tree-hugger commie 20 grade. Now I know better.

 

[surfstar]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
How you going to change my mind when I doubt you been here as long as I been driving and rebuilding engines ...


See. Religious in nature.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: surfstar
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
How you going to change my mind when I doubt you been here as long as I been driving and rebuilding engines ...


See. Religious in nature.

Or old [censored] not accepting that progress marches on. In lubrication, engines, etc. Just like everything new - the old guys think its junk, will break, will cost a lot to repair, etc. That rarely is the case.

 

[tig1]

I used 20 wt Vaveoline in the late 60s and early 70s, and started using M1 5-20 in 1978 with never so much as any lubrication problems in engines calling for 10-30 or 10-40.

 

[A1O]

Hello first post. Been a mechanic for 25 and at our shop we put back in the car what it says on the cap. Last 10 years there has been a great swing to 5w20 motor oil from a lot of the manufacturers and I personally have seen no problems from this. From my personal experience I have had my now retired silverodo go 303,987 on 5w30 Kendall before the tranny gave out. Got oil changed every 5k and a Napa gold filter each time. Just got an 05 crown Vic that has been serviced at the dealer since it was new. Oil change every 3k with 5w20 motorcraft syn blend. She makes a slight ticking noise for the first 15 to 20 seconds then goes away. Car has a Napa pro select filter on. Why not a motor craft filter I don't know. I think a lot of the problems encountered are due to not using a good filter. With the manufacturer rasing oci's and not upgrading the filter is where the problem is.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: shiny
My Crown Vic doesn't have ticking or anything, but I switched from a syn-blend 5w20 to PUP 5w30 and the engine became much quieter. Mileage is slightly improved but that might be from the new air filter.


I'm going to 5w30 PUP on my next 2002 4.6L oil change. I've done 5w-20 the last 45K miles. But considering this engine was originally designed by engineers for 5w-30 back in the 1990's, why should that be superceded by CAFE "back-specifications?" Fwiw, my 1997 4.6L went 232K miles on a diet of 5W-30 as well.

The bottom line is that no one has run only thin oil in their engine for 100K-200K miles and then tore it down to check for wear. And then that has to be followed up by the same test with a thicker oil of the exact same brand. Until that occurs, there's no proof of anything. It could well be that thick OR thin could be reducing engine life by 10, 20, 30% from optimum. And no one would ever know it.

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Or old [censored] not accepting that progress marches on. In lubrication, engines, etc. Just like everything new - the old guys think its junk, will break, will cost a lot to repair, etc. That rarely is the case.


Progress marches on, but you have to match the oil to the engine in question. There are so many guys here trying to convince themselves that a 1997 Ford V-6 with 150,000 is still a candidate for 5W-20 when it sounds like a thrashing machine on steroids under load.

Yeah, they may get another 20K before something breaks... But I have taken that exact same scenario and stepped up the viscosity to 15W-40 and then taken that motor, in a much quieter state, to 253,000 before it went to auction still running fine.

The point being, that as the wearable clearances open up, you need to fill those voids with a more robust viscosity. If you don't, you end up with spun bearings and all manner of broken parts.

If you wanted to do this somewhat scientifically, you'd record the sound of the motor when new (and tight) on the 5W-20 and then try to keep it in that "sound envelope" with whatever means you could including viscosity.

The new engine sounds as the engineers designed it. The used engine is drifting away from that set of mechanical noises to some new louder mess indicating additional metal movement and impacts within the engine...

And there never were any 1978 Chevy 454's spec'd for 5W-20. Why would I try to impose that oil on that technology?

A 2014 Nissan or Lexus - yeah sure knock yourself out ... A 2014 Porsche, I don't think so, not even close ...

 

[RazorsEdge]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Or old [censored] not accepting that progress marches on. In lubrication, engines, etc. Just like everything new - the old guys think its junk, will break, will cost a lot to repair, etc. That rarely is the case.


Progress marches on, but you have to match the oil to the engine in question. There are so many guys here trying to convince themselves that a 1997 Ford V-6 with 150,000 is still a candidate for 5W-20 when it sounds like a thrashing machine on steroids under load.

Yeah, they may get another 20K before something breaks... But I have taken that exact same scenario and stepped up the viscosity to 15W-40 and then taken that motor, in a much quieter state, to 253,000 before it went to auction still running fine.

The point being, that as the wearable clearances open up, you need to fill those voids with a more robust viscosity. If you don't, you end up with spun bearings and all manner of broken parts.

If you wanted to do this somewhat scientifically, you'd record the sound of the motor when new (and tight) on the 5W-20 and then try to keep it in that "sound envelope" with whatever means you could including viscosity.

The new engine sounds as the engineers designed it. The used engine is drifting away from that set of mechanical noises to some new louder mess indicating additional metal movement and impacts within the engine...

And there never were any 1978 Chevy 454's spec'd for 5W-20. Why would I try to impose that oil on that technology?

A 2014 Nissan or Lexus - yeah sure knock yourself out ... A 2014 Porsche, I don't think so, not even close ...


We've got a 96 Crown Vic 4.6 motor with 300,xxx miles sitting in the garage thats had nothing but 5w20/30 weight oil since we bought it at an auction,and it's reliable enough to take on any trip day or night,no unusual sounds under acceleration,etc.

We've got a Ford Explorer with 200,000 miles on the factory stock 4.0 V6 that has used 5w30 since it rolled off the show room floor.

No need of heavier oils in either vehicle.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
The point being, that as the wearable clearances open up, you need to fill those voids with a more robust viscosity. If you don't, you end up with spun bearings and all manner of broken parts.
Really? So you are suggesting that an engine that was originally specified for xW-20 that as it ages it needs xW-30 or xW-40 to prevent "spinning bearings and/or experiencing all manner of broken parts"?

 

[alarmguy]

It makes no difference to the engine if you use 5/20 or 5/30, the only difference is to the EPA and automakers who have to comply.
The 20 is to shave a VERY little off the amount of gas used to run the engine, you will NEVER notice an MPG change, the change so small.

Moral? Use the 5/30 if your engine sounds better to you. I automatically use 5/30 over the recommended 5/20.
Again, the 20 is recommended mostly in the USA, for EPA reasons, no reason to use it. Many of the USA car versions of the same engines and models overseas spec a 5/30 over the 5/20 in the USA>