Don't want to blame oil but I notice a trend

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I'm using 0w20 in my Accord as long as it's on warranty because that's what Honda wants. Wouldn't mind switching to 5-30 later on.

For chucks and giggles I've had the oil TESTED and at the intervals I'm changing (2x a year, Mobil 1) the test results come back saying that all is OK and there is additional potential mileage on the oil. (I could change once every 10 months if I wanted, apparently)

On its web site Mobile recommends either 0w20 or 0w30 for the Accord.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Why not blame the oil ? What else is gonna cause ticking/clattering ?

Allow me to say it for you: Thin oil don't lubricate.

Plain and simple.


If it didn't we'd see a rash of Ford, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, and a few others engines grenade. They don't and most lead long, productive lives. Especially the Ford truck engines which spec 5W20 and run just fine well into the 200k's.

Let's put it another way. In 2009/2010 Ford released the Ecoboost 3.5 in the Taurus SHO, MKS, and Flex. It was spec'ed to use 5W20. Still is to this day. In 2011, Ford released the Ecoboost 3.5 in the F150 and it spec'ed 5w30 (as do all 2011+ Ecoboosts). The 2009/2010 engines were never back spec'ed to 5w30. If there really was a difference in longevity they would have back spec'ed them all to 5w30 like they did with 5w20 back in the day.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Why not blame the oil ? What else is gonna cause ticking/clattering ?

Allow me to say it for you: Thin oil don't lubricate.

Plain and simple.


Well, in the past ten years or so there has been a movement away from timing belts (which we saw a lot of in the 1980s and 1990s back to timing chains (because people got tired of being robbed every 60k miles to put a new one in).

One of the virtues of the timing belt was that it helped a car run quieter. That was a concern for cars that didn't have great sound insulation from the engine compartment.

It might just be that older timing chains click. I dunno. I'm not an expert. But I do think that a fair number of engines have been run flat out for many thousands of hours to test the oil issue and I never know what to think when shade-tree mechanics and engineers disagree. A lot of clicking Accords might be related to engine issues with the 6 cylinders when you see an Accord you never know which of about 6 different designs it is. But as for the other cars, I'll keep quiet.

Course those engineers at VW didn't turn out to be so reliable now did they?

Greg N
 
I agree with the thought that the Ford motors run well on 5w20. My Ford Fusion ran very well on this thinner oil. It ran quiet and well for 4k to 5k miles on Castrol w titanium gold bottle or Valvoline Synpower 5w20. I do think that this viscosity is all right for some motors. Especially some of Ford's motors.

Now on my Nissan Altima I'm thinking a 20 viscosity is a bit thin. I'm quite confident that the 3.5vq motor shears 5w30 into a 20. IF I had a new Nissan I would have a very hard time running a 20 on it. It would have to be a very strong 20 that doesn't shear at all.
 
This thin 5w-20 vs everything thicker debate will truly go on until some new evil is unleashed, won't it?

My '01 Focus (the first year of the 5w-20 spec) at 140k has been run its entire life, per the previous and original owner, on a syn-blend 5w-20. I recently replaced the valve cover gasket and took lots of pictures in the midst. My amatuer untrained eye didn't see anything shocking or out of the ordinary. Then again, I guess the anti-thin crowd would probably expect the damage to be in the heavy hitting areas like main and rod bearings.

Also, I have no startup noise and the only noise I hear while it's running is a rattling exhaust manifold heat shied. If I hold that still all I can hear is injectors.
 
It's interesting that the 3valve 5.4l V8 was spec'd for 5w30 or 5w40 oils when it first came out in Australia in 2001 in the Falcon. That spec stayed for the engine in Australia. When it hit North America in 2004, it was spec'd for 5w20. The bearings and bottom end have no problem with thinner oil, but cam phasers, chain tensioners and timing solenoids do, when coupled with a lack of maintenance.
 
And yet my car is very smooth on 5/20 and 0/20 oils, family members Lexus is too... Hmmmmm...
Maybe these cars are the exception due to my maintenance regimen?
I've ran the Mazda with moly ultra low viscosity oil a number of times and it makes my car extremely quiet. You'd think an oil that thin 35-36Cst @40c would make my engine rattle until it self detonated due to lack of lubrication...
Cause we all know that thin oil don't lubricate,,..
crackmeup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Not one person has shown any scientific evidence of anything over the oil weight argument. About as relevant as basing oil on color to decide when to change the oil. Ive used all sorts of oil and see no discernable differences.


Your right and I certainly don't have an scientific evidence but sometimes you have to look at what you see and make your best guess and imo im starting to think thin oil with a poor design of whatever component in the engine equals issues. I don't think thin oil is as forgiving.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Why not blame the oil? What else is gonna cause ticking/clattering?
How about a bad design of the engine? In the case of the Ford Modular, it really does not matter what oil you run--some of them simply are noisy (but others are not) with no rhyme or reason for the differences.

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Allow me to say it for you: Thin oil don't does lubricate. Plain and simple.
(Fixed it for you) and take your troll hat off Merk--this is BULLoney and you know it. My 2010 FX4 with a 5.4L engine ran 5W-20 for the first 100K and then 0W-20 for the next 60K until I traded it in on a 2015 F-250. It saw at least 70K of heavy towing in temperatures ranging from -16F to 120F and if thin was so bad, I would have had cam phaser or other issues and I did not have a s-i-n-g-l-e problem using these oils. Whether or not you like thin oils is a personal preference, but allow me to say it for you--thin(ner) oils are here to stay and are seeing expanded use, not less use. Case in point--many diesels are moving from 15W-40 to 10W-30 and it is a trend that is expected to continue in the diesel world.
 
To have an opinion that a thinner grade doesn't lubricate as well is within the realm of reasonable thought but to say that any type or grade of oil does not lubricate at all seems to defy logic.
 
Thicker oil definitely protects better,it's just plain and simple physics. But just HOW much thicker can be the pertinent question. In fsm's and om's the wording is there in black and white,"use such and such grade for best fuel economy" "if racing or driving extended high speeds use thicker such and such grade". The GT500,Corvette,and my own car have such wording,some hp cars have thicker grades listed on the oil fill cap.

It's all a give and take. Thin enough/thick enough,not too thin/not too thick. It's all about the perfect equilibrium.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Thicker oil definitely protects better,it's just plain and simple physics. But just HOW much thicker can be the pertinent question. In fsm's and om's the wording is there in black and white,"use such and such grade for best fuel economy" "if racing or driving extended high speeds use thicker such and such grade". The GT500,Corvette,and my own car have such wording,some hp cars have thicker grades listed on the oil fill cap. It's all a give and take. Thin enough/thick enough,not too thin/not too thick. It's all about the perfect equilibrium.
I would agree that an engine operating under special conditions (racing, extended high speed usage) may require thicker oil--but by and large the OEMs take that into account and make those changes where necessary--i.e. turbo charged engines, high output engines, engines which may see operating conditions outside the normal, such as the Corvettes, Mustangs, etc.--as you suggest. Although, even the Mustang is specified for xW-20 in those models which are not predicated towards racing.

However, for the average Joe, driving the average Toyota, Ford, etc. specified for a xW-20, there is more than adequate protection and using a thicker than specified oil, is more of a "feel good" exercise, than one in practicality. Though deemed a straw man argument, how many engines specified for xW-20 have actually failed? In all of the years that xW-20 has been around, would we not have seen some serious issues if the oil were too thin to protect the engine?
 
Most car owners put in whatever the shop/quick lube/dealer puts in without ever thinking twice. Im willing to bet most shops doing the oil change put in the correct viscosity (lots of 20wt cars on the road) but possibilty not an oil with the manufacturer oil spec (different discussion). Yet cars run so much longer than ever before.. hmmm.

Engines have advanced a lot. Cooling systems on the majority of cars these days are rock solid. With a properly designed and functioning cooling system i see no issue running thinner oils. Engine manufacturers know this already.
 
Chevy does not have the same issue? HA! Those piston slappers can be the nosiest outside of those GM-era Subies. I have some pre-2005 and post 2005 Chrysler 3.3 and you can't tell which got the 5w30 and 5w20. Both sound like a Stomp concert... but run like a champ with fresh EGRs.

My 5.4 E-350 cutaway with a diet of Xx20 with 3,300 hours is still quiet enough for me. Could be because it is idling next to some 11,000 hour 6.0PSD. Anyway, with the service it takes (14+ hours per day non-stop), it is not a "thin-oil" issue.


If an engine is making noise and you want to make it an "oil issue", I would look towards the oil filer first.
 
Not one shread of evidence of anything other than an unscientific subjective it sounds noisier to me, so it must be bad.

Some engine designs are queiter than others. Doesn't have anything to do with overall longetivity of the platform.

In the case of the 5.4 3v, its much less of an oil issue and a lot more of a design issue. I've got an '04 with 175,000 on it. Noisy and sounds like a diesel at hot idle, yet performs well and not a hint of trouble in UOA's or any other symptoms.

So is the noise really a "problem" or is just percieved to be a problem? And on top of that, is the percieved masking of the problem ever been scientifically measured, or is it a case of another butt dyno...
 
I've got a 24 year old Lexus LS400 that's seen 5W-30 and 10W-30 for most of its life. It sounds and runs good, I currently have MaxLife 5W-30 in it.
 
Most 5.4's make nose, its a junk motor. I know Ford guys will defend it to death but a number of my contractors replaced theirs, and that is simply not the case with other engines.


Most modern vehicles sound rough at idle because of the DI injectors. Go stand next to a good car like a Mercedes or BMW at idle they sound like [censored], thanks DI!
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Allow me to say it for you: Thin oil don't lubricate.
Plain and simple.


Say that for yourself as much as you like. My experience has been otherwise.

My last daily driver was a 2003 Mercury Sable with the Duratec 3.0 engine. That engine was originally spec'd for 5w30 and then back-spec'd to 5w20. I ran 5w20, 5w30, and even 10w30 in that engine (in the summer), and never noticed any difference in terms of noise or performance. The engine just ran and didn't seem to notice. When I sold the car, it had 186,000 miles on it and I have no doubt it could easily go to twice that.

I drive 80 miles round trip to work, and I live in Phoenix where it gets up to 120 degrees in the summer.

My current daily driver is a 2010 Ford Fusion 2.5liter, which currently has ~207,800 miles on it. I've run mostly straight 5w20 in it, but also some straight 5w30, blends of 5w20 and 5w30, and my last run which was a blend of 5w20, 5w30 and some T6 5w40. I have noticed no obvious difference in terms of engine noise with any of these oils. It all sounds pretty quiet. And with nearly 208,000 miles on the engine, I'd say the 5w20 oil has done a fine job in lubricating the engine.
 
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