Dont use heavier then rec'd oil in FORD VCT cars

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Well Ford doesn't make a VCT...the suppliers do...and they will tell you to follow the manufacturers viscosity recommendations 100%. Any change in viscosity throws the VCT calibration off. BTW, this goes for ALL VVT/VCT engines.

The problem I have with that and it's already been stated several times in this thread is the guys up north in cold climates are running around with the equivilent of a 30wt down south.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: PT1
Well Ford doesn't make a VCT...the suppliers do...and they will tell you to follow the manufacturers viscosity recommendations 100%. Any change in viscosity throws the VCT calibration off.


About a 15F change in oil temperature changes oil one full SAE grade in viscosity.

Are you saying a 15 degree change in oil temperature will throw the VCT calibration off?

Are you aware that the oil temperature in the vast majority of cars with VCT isn't controlled except secondarily by coolant temperature?


I am aware of that but I know at least 10 VCT engineers who will all tell you the same thing...don't mess with the viscosity. Lest we forget about Winter cold start?

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: PT1
Well Ford doesn't make a VCT...the suppliers do...and they will tell you to follow the manufacturers viscosity recommendations 100%. Any change in viscosity throws the VCT calibration off.


About a 15F change in oil temperature changes oil one full SAE grade in viscosity.

Are you saying a 15 degree change in oil temperature will throw the VCT calibration off?

Are you aware that the oil temperature in the vast majority of cars with VCT isn't controlled except secondarily by coolant temperature?


I am aware of that but I know at least 10 VCT engineers who will all tell you the same thing...don't mess with the viscosity. Lest we forget about Winter cold start?


Do you blindly believe the engineers or your own common sense?

 

[XS650]

PT1, please explain what you believe viscosity to be.

Are there actually 10 VCT engineers involved in the VCT on Ford products. That's a big number for what it is.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: XS650
PT1, please explain what you believe viscosity to be.

Are there actually 10 VCT engineers involved in the VCT on Ford products. That's a big number for what it is.


Way more than 10 when you figure all the suppliers bidding on Ford business.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: PT1
Well Ford doesn't make a VCT...the suppliers do...and they will tell you to follow the manufacturers viscosity recommendations 100%. Any change in viscosity throws the VCT calibration off.


About a 15F change in oil temperature changes oil one full SAE grade in viscosity.

Are you saying a 15 degree change in oil temperature will throw the VCT calibration off?

Are you aware that the oil temperature in the vast majority of cars with VCT isn't controlled except secondarily by coolant temperature?


I am aware of that but I know at least 10 VCT engineers who will all tell you the same thing...don't mess with the viscosity. Lest we forget about Winter cold start?


Do you blindly believe the engineers or your own common sense?


The engineers data must be believed when your talking about engineering a primary drive system on an engine. As so many of the components run off that single system. The oil viscosity is calculated and modeled into the acceptable ranges for the system to control engine timing. Slow it down with an oil that is too thick and you end up outside the acceptable range. There are many other issues related to flow, bearing tolerances, aeration etc, etc.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

How hard is it to use the recomended grade? It's mentalilities displayed here that they know better than the manufacturere that will lead to having only one grade Ilsac oil in the future. If I was an automaker I woulod ask for an additive marker in all Ilsac oils to trac that the specs are being used.

 

[1sttruck]

The same vehicles 'that have to have 5w20' for a variety of reason in the US are shipped overseas and Ford recommends something different. You can't rely upon US manuals as by law per CAFE only one oil can be recommended, so look in a non-US for the range of oils that you'll find in the rest of the world.


http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/132772-absolute-best-oil-for-new-f150.html

Down under Ford Australia only recommends 10w30 here for the 5.4l 3V motor.
The motor is imported from USA to fit in the Ford Falcon.
It still has 5w20 on the oil filler cap, so you would think if its ok to use 10w30 here it should be ok in the USA



http://www.300cforums.com/forums/austral...-5w-20-a-4.html

"Just ordered 300C Hemi. 2006 user manual manual specifies 5W30 oil.
2005 user manual specifies 5W20 oil.
I'm going with 5W30 oil because it's in the latter publication. Also 5W30 is easier to get in Oz."

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
How hard is it to use the recomended grade? It's mentalilities displayed here that they know better than the manufacturere that will lead to having only one grade Ilsac oil in the future. If I was an automaker I woulod ask for an additive marker in all Ilsac oils to trac that the specs are being used.


It's one thing to follow the manufacturers recommended specs, it's another thing to actually believe the used male bovine food we are fed about how the Earth will spin out of it's orbit and fall into the Sun if we don't.

Follow the specs for warranty purposes if you choose to (I do) but after that I choose to think for myself.

As a previous poster said, the same engines in OZ have xW-30 oil specced.

 

[jorton]

Please describe how vct(solenoid?)failure affects drivability. I have a Ford with vct for the exhaust cam only. Does the pcm shut down the engine?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I sure am glad I live in the USA where Oil is high quality and reasonably priced unlike some of these not as fortunate areas of the world.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
How hard is it to use the recomended grade? It's mentalilities displayed here that they know better than the manufacturere that will lead to having only one grade Ilsac oil in the future. If I was an automaker I woulod ask for an additive marker in all Ilsac oils to trac that the specs are being used.


When that recommended grade is to get CAFE's blessing and not for the lowest wear, I have a hard time following it.

You're acting like the engineers themselves are recommending the 20wt.

 

[edhackett]

Quote:
Any change in viscosity throws the VCT calibration off. BTW, this goes for ALL VVT/VCT engines.


Hmmm... my Subaru has variable valve timing. The manual says anything from 5W-30 to 20w-50 is OK.

Ed

 

[crinkles]

my 2AZ-FE says all grades OK based on minimum temperature chart. It has VVTi.

 

[Gary Allan]

The visc be darned. I kept hearing this with VTEC on Honda engines. I kept asking if they all waited 20 minutes to engage VTEC. No one answers. Any sensible reasoning would lead you to conclude that if you used a 5w-40 and had issues, the you HAD to have issues with both a 20 and 30 grade AT SOME POINT in the warm up process. Since no one appears to have EVER said "I can't use VTEC until about 6 minutes after I leave the driveway" ..and YOU KNOW that some yahoo! is slamming the thing within 45 seconds of turning the key ..that this claim is extremely exaggerated.

..this is not to endorse using heavier oil ..just catching a whiff of bee-essence.

 

[Mustang2008Z]

All I want to do is follow what is in the manufacturers' manual. If it calls for 5W-20, SM/GF-4 API Certified, then I follow it, if it calls for 5W-30, SM/GF-4 API Certified, then I follow it.

I follow all of the miles/months needed for services, and get them done by the dealer on time so that the mfgr knows that I followed their recommendations on my car.

I keep all of my maintenance records, and should I have any problems with the manufacturer about warranty issues, that repairs will not be covered, then I will keep the original invoices showing what was done when, mileage, and what oil was used, etc, etc., then I will make copies for the dealer and the mfgr for their records, then any repairs will be covered under the warranty.

That way there is written proof for all to see.

Many years ago, when I had engine problems with my Ford F-150, I took my truck in for repairs, and after the dealer saw my written records and contacted Ford, the warranty was honored and it cost them a new motor.

Same thing happened, when I had a Cadillac Seville, too, the dealer was all excited about how much I was being billed for some serious engine and transmission repairs, and was amazed at how fast I signed the order to have the repairs done, then, bingo, I told them it was under General Motors Warranty, they went and checked it out, and lo and behold, everything was under warranty, they changed the order for repair showing that it was under warranty, and it cost me $0.00. GM was stuck with the repairs and they honored the warranty.

 

[Jim Allen]

Chicken Little has gone wild in this thread!

The basic premise is true; viscosity does minimally effect VCT operation. Also, yes, there are failures of the VCT system. I guess these facts leave room for many to drive way past the "Dead End Road" sign on this topic.

When I got my 5.4L 3V Ford, I looked into this question in detail, even speaking with a person at Ford on the Modular Engine Design Team. There's no evidence I found that a grade 30 has any measurable effect on reliability and the effect on the VCT operation is minimal, if not microscopic. As to failure, if the VCT fails, it fails for some reason other than a grade 30 oil. I never did get into the really insane off-spec applications like 15W40 or 20W50, but in OZ, you will see grade 50 oil used in these engines... though that's hot weather.

The modular V8s do run a very high oil pressure... minimum a warmed-up 75 psi at 2000 rpm with 5W20. And they did have problems with oil filters early on due to this high pressure, so I could see that an excessively high viscosity might be some kinda trouble in the right (err, wrong) circumstance... aka cold weather but then that's what he oil pressure relief valve is for, ain't it?

BTW, I can only speak to the modular V8s, the the Duratec fours with VCT.. they may be a different animal.

I think 5W20 is the best choice for these engines overall but if I ran my engine hard in hot weather, I might consider a grade 30. As for my truck, the oil temp is seldom above 195 degrees, so my 5W20 is running at, or near, 30 grade viscosity anyway. That's probably true for most of these engines and I'll bet Ford knows it.

 

[INDYMAC]

I'm not familiar with VCT. Is it full time, or part time? Are there any engine speed/coolant temp parameters that have to be met for it to operate properly?

I am familiar with the Honda F20/22 VTEC part time system. It is electrically actuated and hydraulically operated. Honda has always recommended SAE 10W-30 or 5W-40 for cold weather (worldwide) for these engines. In order for the VTEC solenoid to energize, you have to be accelerating through 6K RPM's and the engine coolant has to be a minimum temperature (3 bars on gauge).
The only other show stopper that I'm aware of for VTEC is low oil quantity in the sump. For me, waiting for the engine to warm up isn't a problem. It takes much longer for the tranny and differential gears to warm up than the engine.

If VCT is full time, then I can see why Ford wants you to use the lower viscosity oils they recommend. If it's part time, then I'm sure that Ford included the proper safe guards for proper operation and use with a 5W-30.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I'm not familiar with VCT. Is it full time, or part time? Are there any engine speed/coolant temp parameters that have to be met for it to operate properly?


Interesting question. I had not considered it being part-time. I can monitor VCT operation via a Gryphon programmer, so I will check that out and see if it operates cold and hot, or just hot.

 

[Drivebelt]

Quote:
I am familiar with the Honda F20/22 VTEC part time system. It is electrically actuated and hydraulically operated.


Yup. I would imagine almost all VVT systems operate that way, or are very similar.

VVT's use a hydraulic system where the motor oil is used as a hydraulic fluid to move the VVT, but it's not the pressure of the oil that actually activates the VVT system -- it's a solenoid -- or oil control valve. It's like a backhoe. Oil pressurizes the hydraulics and moves the pistons in and out, but a lever operating an oil control valve opens and shuts the hydraulic lines, moving hydraulic fluid in and out of the piston.

In the case of an engine, the oil control valve that adjusts the hydraulic fluid in and out of the VVT is operated by the ECM (electronic control module). The ECM takes input from various sources like Crankshaft Position Sensor, Coolant Sensor, Mass Air Flow Meter, … etc., and adjusts the hydraulic flow to the VVT based on that data to get the correct position. As long as the hydraulic system is pressurized, when the oil control valve opens or closes, the VVT is moved to the correct position by oil pressure. One could conceivably use from 0W-10 to 20W-70 oil, and as long as the system is pressurized, the VVT will operate well.

A thick oil like a 20W-70 may flow a "little" slower than a lighter weight 5W-20 though the hydraulic system, so the VVT "might" operate a "tad" slower with a thicker oil (big might), but it's probably so minimal I doubt there would be any real world noticeable differences.

Here's a diagram of the setup for a Toyota 1ZZ-FE.pdf VVT engine.