Do you think that's "thick" oil? Think again!

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: NGRhodes
How does it tie back to reality?

Lots of talk of thicker/more base oil, but how much/thick is enough?
Do we have any real examples of excessive chain wear caused from manufacturer specified oil?


That's the problem, and circularity of the argument.

All the OEMs want to go thinner, and acknowledge that there's wear that goes with it. In order to get acceptable wear, they head to additives, which minimise wear while oil film thicknesses shrink (full hydrodynamic was known as "zero wear" back in the day).

The oil manufacturers push to meet the wear standards, by making more novel and expensive brews to get under the bar.

Then we have the "TOFs" claiming that's proof positive of their belief...however engines, materials, basestocks and additives have all changed at the same time.

We are not comparing apples and apples...as an engineer, the mantra was "to keep 'em separated", and all would be good. Boundary was to be avoided unless absolutely necessary, as industry likes their stuff to last forever...

Consumer goods only have to last until you forgot the pain of buying it, or you are sick of looking at it and want it gone.

 

[Ducked]

My SAE 40 / 15W40 blend is looking better all the time.

Maybe.

(No timing chain though)

 

[turnbowm]

So, 10W30 over 5W30 for lower timing chain wear but 5W30 over 10W30 for lower start-up wear?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
So, 10W30 over 5W30 for lower timing chain wear but 5W30 over 10W30 for lower start-up wear?


The latter only at -20C or below.

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
So, 10W30 over 5W30 for lower timing chain wear but 5W30 over 10W30 for lower start-up wear?


The latter only at -20C or below.

Is start-up wear @ 0C the same for both 5W30 and 10W30?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
So, 10W30 over 5W30 for lower timing chain wear but 5W30 over 10W30 for lower start-up wear?


The latter only at -20C or below.

Is start-up wear @ 0C the same for both 5W30 and 10W30?


Yep

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: Linctex
Yep, straight 30W Oil often delivers outstanding used oil analysis on this form.
Modern straight-grade oils often exhibit much better cold flow characteristics than their compadres from decades ago.
When you look at the numbers, some straight 30W oils are ACTUALLY 15W-30 or 20W-30 oil,
Even though it is labeled as a straight 30 anyway.

I believe that Amsoil sells a SAE30/10W30 synth.

 

[wemay]

Within context, this study is as interesting and just as valid as the one's with opposing views. There was also some debate whether lube chemistry could help quench LSPI, yet every blender has followed suit with a reduced Calcium and Sodium package.

 

[littleant]

Gokhan thanks for your post. Good read. A question if I can. My interest is with timing chains (3 in a 2010 mountaineer 4.0). Is it more important to get oil to the chains at startup (5w30) or when running (10w30) Summer/Winter. Ford specs 5w30 and the one engine that never changed to 5w20. I use QSUD 5w30. At these weights does it even matter?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
So, 10W30 over 5W30 for lower timing chain wear but 5W30 over 10W30 for lower start-up wear?

The latter only at -20C or below.

Is start-up wear @ 0C the same for both 5W30 and 10W30?

Yep

Is actual "startup wear" even an issue with any oil?

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
So somebody needs to start making a 10W20 oil (or even 15W20), or do we just all start running monogrades again?


Chevron makes a very stout 15W-30 Delo 400 SD (severe duty) that I have been advocating for a long time for hot rod engines with flat tappets. Seems the modern engine bug-a-boo is timing chain wear ... So fall back to high quality narrow spread multi's to prevent the issue from becoming a problem.

Or, in those places where the operator can do it, just run a premium mono like SAE 20 or 30

Many of these mono's would pass a 5W or 10W test anyway. Some of Redline's oil are duel rated as in SAE 30 and 5W-30. They are all synthetic as much as possible.

Ex: 5W-20 Street oil

Ex: Redline Mono Race Oil

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: tig1
With over 425K in my last 3 Ford overhead cam engines using 20wt oils (most was 0-20), no increased chain or valve train noise.


So is that 1.3M miles you've driven over three cars, or the total of the three cars in 425k miles...they are very different statements taken separately.

Did you measure the chains for wear, or take sound as your guide for no increased wear ?
It is the M1 oil !!! Syn good conventional bad.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno

Chevron makes a very stout 15W-30 Delo 400 SD (severe duty) that I have been advocating for a long time for hot rod engines with flat tappets. Seems the modern engine bug-a-boo is timing chain wear ... So fall back to high quality narrow spread multi's to prevent the issue from becoming a problem.
Or, in those places where the operator can do it, just run a premium mono like SAE 20 or 30

Many of these mono's would pass a 5W or 10W test anyway. Some of Redline's oil are duel rated as in SAE 30 and 5W-30. They are all synthetic as much as possible.
Ex: 5W-20 Street oil

Ex: Redline Mono Race Oil

Redline has an SAE30/10W30 racing oil, but if the CCS is correctly stated at -20C I suspect that it didn't quite make the 10W (that should be at -25C). They also mention that it doesn't have enough detergents for street use. Maybe they have a similar street oil and I missed it...

 

[BrocLuno]

Well, that's the rub for racing oils. No one short of the ice racers have to worry about cold start ... Who's going to try to get traction at anything less than 20*C ... So the oil does not have to deal with really low temps.

And their street oils are not as good ...

 

[4WD]

If they don’t get ruptured in the big end rod bearings = can’t they handle the stress of a timing chain?

On the Mobil chart = 5w30 is the lowest VM user?

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Well, that's the rub for racing oils. No one short of the ice racers have to worry about cold start ... Who's going to try to get traction at anything less than 20*C ... So the oil does not have to deal with really low temps.
And their street oils are not as good ...

Agreed, looks like they probably got quite close to a 10W based on the CCS they give at -20C and decided that calling it that for racing applications was fine.
Or, they just misprinted -20C instead of -25C. All kind of a don't care for a racing oil.

 

[4WD]

… doubt Delo 400 10w30 (semi) has an overload of VM … so if temp matters a bit that’s good stuff too …

Normally Delo and Delvac dino have a better NOACK than the cheese dip sounding HDEO …

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turnbowm

Is start-up wear @ 0C the same for both 5W30 and 10W30?

Yep

Interesting. I thought that a lower viscosity oil would get pumped to various parts (valvetrain, in particular) quicker than a higher viscosity oil. Guess it doesn't matter as long as a residual film of oil separates the moving parts.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Interesting. I thought that a lower viscosity oil would get pumped to various parts (valvetrain, in particular) quicker than a higher viscosity oil. Guess it doesn't matter as long as a residual film of oil separates the moving parts.

His point is that it's not a lower viscosity oil, not at that temperature.

 

[LeakySeals]

Its not thick oil think, its Nissan attempting to mask design flaws