Different Oil Viscosities

[Whimsey]

We keep bashing this subject over and over again. So I guess we should ignore the really good UOA's we have with engines that are spec'd for 5W-20 and listen to "feelings" of individuals who prefer "thicker oil" no matter what

. I would think that hardcore data, ie UOA, would be positive evidence enough as to these "water thin" oils are not destroying the engines they are spec'd for. And I don't really care what the Europeans spec for their vehicles. I been there for many years and driven there cars. I've also seen very few older vehicles since they don't seem to last without becoming smoking hulks. Could that be the oil change intervals or the oil used

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Whimsey

 

[1sttruck]

Oil analysis results are an in process indicator of wear, and the data needs to be correlated with long term durability in a range of loads and environments. A few good results in this forum doesn't do that, especially since people in the US usually don't drive their vehicles as hard as in other parts of the world. Also, the apparent long term durability of some vehicles in the US has been demonstrated using heavier oils.

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

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Originally posted by 1sttruck:
I recall a Ford article mentioning something like a 0.6% increase in economy using 5w-20 instead of 5w30. In essence, in order to keep selling low mpg trucks and SUVs in the US market the OEMs are doing everything possible to get the corporate mileage up. This includes prescribing 5w-20 in the US market while not doing so in other markets. We in the US are told that we're getting a free lunch; 'increased mileage with no decrease in long term durability'. 5w-20 advocates here restate it another way 'everyone else is dumb because they're not taking advantage of the same protection and better mileage', but are ignoring the fact that it's the OEMs that don't seem to be prescribing 5w-20 elsewhere.

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Three decades ago Mobil had concluded that a 5W-20 protected just fine and dandy.

It became a 5w30 due to consumer prejudice, people just couldn't believe an SAE 30 oil wasn't needed.

There are some few applications for heavier viscosities - for example older engines with wide clearances designed for heavier lubes, engines operated under extreme high temperature and/or load.

 

[Whimsey]

quote:

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Originally posted by darkdan:
I'm sure they only backspeced the engines to try to prove to the masses that it was a good thing.

Several engines didn't get respeced.

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Gee, maybe that shows Ford wasn't "willy nilly" in recommending the use of Motorcraft spec'd 5W-20 oil

. It seems this has become a "hate" 5W-20 site no matter what actual UOA results show. Personally I'll abide by Terry's advise

. He did an UOA early on and he'll do another one with my next oil change. But I guess "feelings" is more important

.

Whimsey

 

[darkdan]

In 7 years when there are more than just a handful of people with 200k+ miles on 5w20 (instead of the handful now which have 200k+ highway miles) then I'll feel better at night.

Until then, I'm still weary regardless of the on paper results.

 

[DR]

I don't hate xw-20 weight oils. Point of fact I have M1 0W-20 in my Mom's Accord right now and she says it runs quiet and smooth. I just didn't understand why Honda, Ford, Chrysler, etc. would say to use one thing here and another thing there for the same engine, if in fact they do. I just don't see why the car companys/dealers would give anyone grief over using thicker oil when it comes to warranty coverages when they recommend said thicker oil in other markets. But 20 weights are good as far as I know, I use them, I was just curious.

 

[Whimsey]

quote:

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Originally posted by darkdan:
In 7 years when there are more than just a handful of people with 200k+ miles on 5w20 (instead of the handful now which have 200k+ highway miles) then I'll feel better at night.

Until then, I'm still weary regardless of the on paper results.

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So obviously you don't believe in the oil analysis performed here and reported here. So people like Terry are to be blown away unless there is 7+ years of oil history

.

While I'm "old" I do believe in the results of UOA's. I'd rather believe in concrete evidence rather than "feelings" .

Whimsey

 

[JohnnyO]

quote:

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Originally posted by Whimsey:
So I guess we should ignore the really good UOA's we have with engines that are spec'd for 5W-20 and listen to "feelings" of individuals who prefer "thicker oil" no matter what

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Exactly.

A good UOA is a good UOA. If the wear metals are low, then go for it. I sleep well at night with 0w-20 M1 or 5w-20 M'craft in the Taurus after hearing from Blackstone.
If you pump in some 75w-90 gear lube and get a good UOA, then use it.

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by darkdan:
In 7 years when there are more than just a handful of people with 200k+ miles on 5w20 (instead of the handful now which have 200k+ highway miles) then I'll feel better at night.

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There are already thousands of vehicles on the road that have gone 200k plus while running a 5w20 oil. I say that because the average person who runs 5w30 dino oil doesn't even realize it, but it actually ends up turning into 5w20 in a lot of cases anyhow. So which would you rather run, a 5w30 which thins out to a 5w20 (leaving behind sludge in the process), or a 5w20 which uses a better base oil and better add pack, and holds it's viscosity and keeps the engine cleaner? Which do you think will protect that engine better in the long run? My money is on the 5w20. Most of the driving public can do just fine on this viscosity.

 

[1sttruck]

Again, as DR and others have observed, why does it seem like 5w-20 is only good enough for the US, and for the same model and engine 30 or 40 weight oils are recommended elsewhere ?

As some have already stated, 5w-20 is probably fine for most people and a lot of vehicles in the US. Compared to 30 weight on average you'll get a 0.6% increase in fuel economy. Long term durability isn't probably as important of an issue for most people anyway, as don't seem to want to hang on to older cars.

 

[darkdan]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
There are already thousands of vehicles on the road that have gone 200k plus while running a 5w20 oil. I say that because the average person who runs 5w30 dino oil doesn't even realize it, but it actually ends up turning into 5w20 in a lot of cases anyhow. So which would you rather run, a 5w30 which thins out to a 5w20 (leaving behind sludge in the process), or a 5w20 which uses a better base oil and better add pack, and holds it's viscosity and keeps the engine cleaner? Which do you think will protect that engine better in the long run? My money is on the 5w20. Most of the driving public can do just fine on this viscosity.

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Yeah, there are even more thousands with 5w30 or 10w30 too.

The "thousands" that have 200k miles now have been since 2001. 200k miles in 4 years = lots of highway driving.

I don't go around saying 5w20 is crap, instead I'm just holding out till we know the long term effects. So after a good 9 to 11 years of long term use then we'll now the long term effects.

Until then I'm not saying 5w20 is the work of the devil or that it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Heck, I even threw it into my aspire for a short interval just to see what it would do on an engine that it wasn't speced for it. I certainly didn't have abnormal wear.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by mechtech:
Many Mfrs. have retro-spec'd their cars for very light oils, and have no impact on Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

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Which ones other than Ford and Honda which are the prime movers in the US drive toward 5w-20???

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

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Originally posted by mechtech:
Many Mfrs. have retro-spec'd their cars for very light oils, and have no impact on Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

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The reason for that is that dealers typically only keep one oil on hand - the bulk drums they use on their lube racks.

If they did not retro-specify, dealers would keep using 5w30 or whatever they've been using and the current buyers wouldn't get anything resembling the CAFE mileage on their new cars.

 

[1sttruck]

The use of 5w-20 wasn't developed for maximum protection, instead the use was developed for economy with minimal additional impact to a significant portion of the US driving public, and especially to the OEMs. For maximum protection it appears that one should take cues from what the OEMs are recommending for the rest of the world.

 

[pitzel]

Extended drain intervals might have something to do with the recommendations as well.

Amsoil's literature claims that the average 'American' changes oil on average roughly every 5000 miles.

However, cars in the rest of the world receive oil changes dramatically less often. The Xw-40 oils are said to be more robust, and able to better resist the associated oxidation, hence the reason why they are recommended in environments where oil changes are typically performed less frequently.

After all, owners manuals generally indicate, unless a special oil is spec'ed for a vehicle (like Mobil-1 for Corvettes), that one can use pretty much any off-the-shelf dino, no matter how poor it is, so long as it meets a very basic API spec.

 

[Dr. T]

Correct...a quick perusal of ACEA specs allows one to conclude that the 2 competing factors are viscosity (specifically HT/HS) and drain intervals. ie. A1 is long life/low HT/HS and on the other end of the spectrum is A3 (high HT/HS)

Seems like some Euro. manuf. spec. (ie. some Euro. engines) favor or require a higher HT/HS and some get by with a lower one. The crossing point is a 30 weight...not all of these are created equal.

US manuf. don't have a clue with respect to these factors...

 

[Audi Junkie]

Here is my understanding of Long-Life oils and HT/HS. Castrol makes another low-HT/HS version of SLX, SLX II for use in their European cars that have Audi Varible Servie Interval system. The cars' engines have roller-rockers and other minor mods to make them able run on the SLX II. So, in effect, the high HT/HS SLX that we use does not represent the longest-life oil in their line-up. To put it in perspective, SLX II runs 30,000 miles with UOA tests. I have heard of 60,000km intervals in some apps.

web page

quote:

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Important – Special Oil Requirements

To benefit from the new technology and Audi Variable Service Intervals, newly developed Long Life oils such as Castrol SLX OW30 Long Life 2 must be used (please refer to owners handbook). They have been specially formulated for Audi and are a new generation of ultra high-grade synthetic oils designed to withstand ageing and high loads without deterioration. Using ordinary high quality multigrade oil will not cause any engine damage but it will defeat the object of the new technology and cause a service to be needed at 10,000 miles. In addition, compared with conventional oils, Long Life oils gives exceptional levels of engine protection, are kinder to the environment and deliver fuel savings. In recent tests carried out on vehicles in Germany SLX Long Life 2 resulted in a fuel saving of 2.72%.

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Sounds like a thin 0w30

Achtung, lassen Sie sich nicht zum Sparen am falschen Ende verführen! Gerade beim Ölwechsel sollten Sie sich auf Qualität verlassen, denn ein hochwertiges Leichtlauf-Öl kann sich als echtes Spritspar-Genie erweisen. Tests beweisen: Vollsynthetische Hochleistungsschmierstoffe wie Castrol SLX LongTec SAE 0w30 oder Castrol DCO TopUp SAE 0w30 können auf Dauer eine Spritersparnis von bis zu fünf Prozent gegenüber herkömmlichen Motorenölen bringen. Dieser Wert liegt im Kurzstreckenverkehr sogar noch höher. So rechnen sich auch die Mehrkosten für ein Top-Produkt. Bereits ab einem Ölwechselintervall von 15.000 Kilometern ist die Kraftstoffersparnis bei einem normalen Durchschnitts-Pkw höher als die Kosten für den kompletten Ölwechsel! Ganz nebenbei tun Sie auch noch etwas für den Werterhalt Ihres Fahrzeugs. Denn die qualitativen Vorteile eines Hightec-Öles sorgen für verlässlichen Motorschutz – auch bei verlängerten Ölwechselintervallen.

Sounds like DTM Champion Audi Abt uses SLX.

Dort ist natürlich auch der neue Audi A4 DTM aus nächster Nähe zu sehen, dessen Herzstück der rund 460 PS starke Vierliter-V8-Motor ist. Das Triebwerk ist weit hinter der Vorderachse eingebaut, um eine optimale Gewichtsverteilung des Autos zu erreichen. Für perfekte Schmierung ist ohnehin gesorgt: Abt Sportsline verwendet Castrol FORMULA SLX. Das im normalen Werkstatt-Handel erhältliche Voll-Synthese-Öl ist extrem Hitzebeständig und sorgt selbst bei langen Vollgas-Passagen wie beim Nürnberger Stadtrennen auf dem Norisring für einen schützenden Schmierfilm. Durch seine innovative Molekularstruktur und seine zukunftsweisende Additiv-Technologie reduziert Castrol FORMULA SLX Reibungen und sorgt so für eine optimale Leistungsausbeute. Gleichzeitig schützt das Öl das Triebwerk vor Schäden - in der DTM ein entscheidender Faktor. Denn das technische Reglement erlaubt den Teams pro Saison mit immerhin zehn Rennen lediglich den Einsatz von drei Motoren für jeweils zwei Fahrer.