Did Ford/GM develop a more complicated transmission for the least gain?

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From a Lubrizol presentation.

My understanding of this slide is that Ford and GM developed a transmission with the most speeds and nothing but issues for the least gain? Is that right??

Screenshot_20241225_012543_Adobe Acrobat.webp
 
Looks like they are actually not alone. I see 3 other 9-10 speeds on this graph. Folks wine about anything.
Yeah but the other 9/10 speeds are delivering more fuel economy.

And fewer issues to boot. The Mercedes 9 speed seems to be alright. The ZF 9 speed seems to have some programming issues and drivers being unfamiliar but not really actual mechanical issues...
 
Yeah but the other 9/10 speeds are delivering more fuel economy.
I would assume that the technology is going to depend on the application. A more fitting "comparison" would be to show which or what vehicles those specific transmissions are going into & their weights. But as to the GM/Ford I'd imagine it is sacrificing efficiency for reliability & or cost reduction.
 
When you have one that works properly (like mine) the 10 speed turns smaller engines into quite the workhorses.

It's not all about the economy. I tow a lot of weight, fairly often, and am completely happy with my little 4 cylinder.

Would the same engine do it with a 5 or 6 speed? I don't think it would be near as effortless.
 
Yeah but the other 9/10 speeds are delivering more fuel economy.

And fewer issues to boot. The Mercedes 9 speed seems to be alright. The ZF 9 speed seems to have some programming issues and drivers being unfamiliar but not really actual mechanical issues...
That is more to vehicle manufacturers. Each has its specific programming.
 
From a Lubrizol presentation.

My understanding of this slide is that Ford and GM developed a transmission with the most speeds and nothing but issues for the least gain? Is that right??

View attachment 255664
Personally I think why the Ford/GM 10 speed has the lowest % gain is that the majority of these trans’ are going into either brick-up trucks or they’re behind twin turbos or a big belt driven screw supercharger. Or both, lol!

OTOH, the last 2.3 EcoBoost/10 speed I had (was also a convertible so not the lightest or best aero) I drove back from SFO to IND in a little over 32 hours of drive time, and averaged 72+mph over the whole trip. The car got 31.8 mpg hand-calculated, and that included 3 straight hours across NV & UT with 3 digits showing on the Speedo. No way it would have done that even with a stick.
 
Personally I think why the Ford/GM 10 speed has the lowest % gain is that the majority of these trans’ are going into either brick-up trucks or they’re behind twin turbos or a big belt driven screw supercharger. Or both, lol!

OTOH, the last 2.3 EcoBoost/10 speed I had (was also a convertible so not the lightest or best aero) I drove back from SFO to IND in a little over 32 hours of drive time, and averaged 72+mph over the whole trip. The car got 31.8 mpg hand-calculated, and that included 3 straight hours across NV & UT with 3 digits showing on the Speedo. No way it would have done that even with a stick.
Yes, they are in larger units. I own a similar Tahoe with both a 6 speed and 10 speed - 18 mpg vs 20 mpg - but regardless the 10 speed is much smoother delivering power to wheels …
 
2020 & newer Corvette's have the 10 speed and have had lots of problems with them. The really shift nice and quick though but are very expensive to replace.
 
From a Lubrizol presentation.

My understanding of this slide is that Ford and GM developed a transmission with the most speeds and nothing but issues for the least gain? Is that right??

View attachment 255664
What’s this about higher temperature - are all the other things posted equally bogus … ?
Mine runs 150° @75 MPH with outside temps at the century mark.
 
Yeah but the other 9/10 speeds are delivering more fuel economy.

And fewer issues to boot. The Mercedes 9 speed seems to be alright. The ZF 9 speed seems to have some programming issues and drivers being unfamiliar but not really actual mechanical issues...
ZF seems to be a powerhouse in the auto transmission world. It seems like only a few years ago that there were what 5,6,7 transmission manufacturers out there? Borg Warner, hurst or were they just shifters?
 
The ZF 9-speed being 16% more efficient is surprising, but I'm guessing it's designed for lower power/torque applications?

Other then that, when there's more gears, there's more bearings, more clutches, more brakes and in general more places for losses to occur so not surprised there's diminishing returns. And lets be fair, they all emplay techniques beyond more gears to reduce power losses that could have been used on a 6 speed aswell. In that case the difference would have been even smaller.

I have a DCT in my car, 7 gears. It uses dry clutches, which are more efficient than wet clutches and the rest of the gearbox is very close if not identical to what a 7 speed manual transmission would be. it's configured with 6 short gears that cover speeds up to 30 ish mph (6th gear from 30 mph and up) and a taller 7th useable from 40mph. the controls for the transission will take some power, it seems to be all hydraulics, but overall should have very little effect. The biggest downsides for DCT is crawling in 1st gear, this often means slipping the clutch but with the 1st gear being so short it doesn't seem to be an issue. Any speed above 4mph should not have any slip happening.

I think the hydraulics part is a Borg Warner design, the rest is made by SAIC.
 
2020 & newer Corvette's have the 10 speed and have had lots of problems with them. The really shift nice and quick though but are very expensive to replace.
The C8 has an 8 speed DCT (it’s a Tremec TR9080) It has it’s share of issues but it’s more reliable than the 8 speed from the C7. I’m a little worried about my C7 having potential problems in the future but at 106,000 km it has been flawless so hopefully that means I don’t have a bad one 🤞😬
 
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