Hey, if you're worried about so many issues with multi-gear transmissions, you could always just get yourself something with a...
CVT
CVT
Did Ford/GM develop a more complicated transmission for the least gain?
- Thread starter Deontologist
- Start date
The Ford 10 speed is in trucks so I wouldn't expect that much mileage increase. My 2019 5.0 with a 10 speed gets a lot better mileage than my sons 2017 5.0 with the 6 speed
4WD
$50 site donor 2025
My GM comparison is a higher gain than they claim and temps way cooler …
Maybe this isn’t the holy grail …
dnewton3
Staff member
Speaking in generalities of the automotive world (and perhaps most things in general) ...
Items which have a proportionally inverse relationship between technology and reliability:
- safety suite and other integrated systems; ABS and airbags are OK, but all these others like LKA, BSM, AEB, as well as cellular vehicle starts, on-board wireless, etc all really make cars much more difficult to diagnose and repair, and are trending to be high-maintenance items in the long term. And worst yet, as they "age out" it's nearly improbable to find OE NIB replacement parts, so repairs are left to used equipment or abandoning the vehicle entirely
- efficiency gains; DI is great for power production and fuel economy, but without the aid of PFI, DI will eventually be a maintenance issue that costs many hundreds of $$$ to rectify. Further, as this thread indicates, adding more and more speeds to a step-shift trans eventually gets to a point where the gains are far outweighed by the long term ownership repairs. Small turbo engines are stressed more than their non-turbo counterparts ... High power per liter makes for more concerns long term (failed turbos, head gaskets, etc)
Items which have a proportionally direct relationship between technology and cost:
(pretty much everything above)
Most of the improvements in the last decade haven't been real gains in reliability; they are done to meet regulatory standards. The "gains" seem to have a retarding effect in desirability in regard to long-term ownership. But the OEs must meet the standards or they can't sell the product, so the future is a distant concern to what they must do today.
Items which have a proportionally inverse relationship between technology and reliability:
- safety suite and other integrated systems; ABS and airbags are OK, but all these others like LKA, BSM, AEB, as well as cellular vehicle starts, on-board wireless, etc all really make cars much more difficult to diagnose and repair, and are trending to be high-maintenance items in the long term. And worst yet, as they "age out" it's nearly improbable to find OE NIB replacement parts, so repairs are left to used equipment or abandoning the vehicle entirely
- efficiency gains; DI is great for power production and fuel economy, but without the aid of PFI, DI will eventually be a maintenance issue that costs many hundreds of $$$ to rectify. Further, as this thread indicates, adding more and more speeds to a step-shift trans eventually gets to a point where the gains are far outweighed by the long term ownership repairs. Small turbo engines are stressed more than their non-turbo counterparts ... High power per liter makes for more concerns long term (failed turbos, head gaskets, etc)
Items which have a proportionally direct relationship between technology and cost:
(pretty much everything above)
Most of the improvements in the last decade haven't been real gains in reliability; they are done to meet regulatory standards. The "gains" seem to have a retarding effect in desirability in regard to long-term ownership. But the OEs must meet the standards or they can't sell the product, so the future is a distant concern to what they must do today.
Fuel economy gains with more gears could be related to having a taller top gear. That's one of the main reasons CVT's are good on fuel (a very wide effective gear ratio spread). Maybe just me, but I'd trade gears for durability anyday. 10 speeds just seems over the top to me.
I’ve certainly had my fair share of issues with the 10r80, but one thing I can’t deny is the gas mileage, with a lifetime habit of around 20.8mpg in a full-size 4x4 that hits 60 in right around 6 seconds. The diminishing returns from 8 speeds to 10 still contributes.
Yes they are dual clutch and I guess they are only 8 speed and I thought they were 10 speeds. I do know they shift really quick!
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- Feb 5, 2023
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- 244
Well, I think a big part of it is look at the gear ratio breakdown, particularly the first and the final year. Looking at the 10-speed Ford / GM 10 speed transmission depending on the application the first gear is 4.71-4.53 And the final gear is about a .63. Ford's previous six speed had a first gear ratio of 4.17-3.97 And a final gear of .69-.67; and GM's had a first gear of 4.06-4.02 and an overdrive of .67 (Not to mention GM's 8 speed 1st gear of 4.61-4.56 and final gear of .65-.66.
Let's compare that to this four speed era with Ford having a first gear of 2.84 and an overdrive of .07 and GM having a 1st gear of 3.05 and an overdrive of .07. The improvement found by the six speed was dramatic for either manufacturer for a much wider gear ratio spread with Ford improving the most. Looking at the 10-speed transmission to 6 speed transmission with the 8-speed transmission in the background as a reference point, it's an improvement, but a very small improvement in the gear spread alone. The improvement also kind of falls within the laws of diminishing returns. You can only add so much more spread to the transmission your ratios and actually find a measurable improvement. Going from a first gear of 2.84 to 4.17 makes a very noticeable difference ( about a 46.8 percent improvement), but going from a 4.17 to a 4.71 (about a 12.9 percent improvement). It's not going to be as noticeable as it's a smaller percentage on an already very short first gear. Then look at the gear spread with the GM transmission as an example. The first gear ratio on the GM transmission Best case scenario is 4.61 versus the 10 speed best case scenario is 4.71 with GM 8 speed overdrive best case scenario is 65 with the 10 speed is 0.63. The first gear improvement is roughly a 2.2% improvement. The overdrive appears to be about a 3% improvement on the overdrive. Very small improvement overall in a territory where the law of diminishing returns has likely already taken effect. Then if you want to look at the improvements on the overdrives from 4 to 6 to 8 to 10, The four to six best case scenario was roughly a 4.3 percent improvement. The 6 to 8 Best case scenario was roughly a 3 percent improvement. The 8 to 10 speed was as stated before a 3 percent improvement. The bottom line is I think if we're not at peak transmission at this point, we're not too far off from it. Having driven Chrysler products with the 9-speed transmission versus the 6 speed transmission on long distance trips, It's hard to tell if they get any better gas mileage than the 6-speed does. One thing it does do for sure is hunt for gear is way more often. I also can't tell a dramatic improvement on acceleration with a nine speed either. The four to six speed era was a dramatic improvement that was very measurable in fuel economy and throttle response.
Let's compare that to this four speed era with Ford having a first gear of 2.84 and an overdrive of .07 and GM having a 1st gear of 3.05 and an overdrive of .07. The improvement found by the six speed was dramatic for either manufacturer for a much wider gear ratio spread with Ford improving the most. Looking at the 10-speed transmission to 6 speed transmission with the 8-speed transmission in the background as a reference point, it's an improvement, but a very small improvement in the gear spread alone. The improvement also kind of falls within the laws of diminishing returns. You can only add so much more spread to the transmission your ratios and actually find a measurable improvement. Going from a first gear of 2.84 to 4.17 makes a very noticeable difference ( about a 46.8 percent improvement), but going from a 4.17 to a 4.71 (about a 12.9 percent improvement). It's not going to be as noticeable as it's a smaller percentage on an already very short first gear. Then look at the gear spread with the GM transmission as an example. The first gear ratio on the GM transmission Best case scenario is 4.61 versus the 10 speed best case scenario is 4.71 with GM 8 speed overdrive best case scenario is 65 with the 10 speed is 0.63. The first gear improvement is roughly a 2.2% improvement. The overdrive appears to be about a 3% improvement on the overdrive. Very small improvement overall in a territory where the law of diminishing returns has likely already taken effect. Then if you want to look at the improvements on the overdrives from 4 to 6 to 8 to 10, The four to six best case scenario was roughly a 4.3 percent improvement. The 6 to 8 Best case scenario was roughly a 3 percent improvement. The 8 to 10 speed was as stated before a 3 percent improvement. The bottom line is I think if we're not at peak transmission at this point, we're not too far off from it. Having driven Chrysler products with the 9-speed transmission versus the 6 speed transmission on long distance trips, It's hard to tell if they get any better gas mileage than the 6-speed does. One thing it does do for sure is hunt for gear is way more often. I also can't tell a dramatic improvement on acceleration with a nine speed either. The four to six speed era was a dramatic improvement that was very measurable in fuel economy and throttle response.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
ZF9 is for transverse engines, geared more to appliance vehicles.
ZF8 is for longitudinal engines co-developed with BMW.
with all the axles in the same orientation that alone will help I'm sure, and it can be built lighter.
It's a shame that you can't get a 5 speed manual in a Ford or GM pickup truck.
A manual 5 or 6 speed (I’d opt for 6) beyond the 2.7 eco would be an amazing combo for both work and play!
It's just a wrecked Bronco away!!
4WD
$50 site donor 2025
That 16% is one of three things I “don’t buy” from that chart
4WD
$50 site donor 2025
I doubt they woke up and said, hey - let’s add gears …
Stop/start, 10 speed, DFM, smaller turbo’s, 0W20, aluminum/plastic body panels - they are just squeezing a drop here and there …
Might be time for the the 3 letters to back off …
The ZF9 isn’t a fair comparison to the other transmissions on that list as it’s a transverse platform gearbox with a max torque rating of 480 nm. The Ford 10R140 is a longditudinal gearbox that has a max torque rating of 1424nm. A 2.0 diesel bolted to a ZF9 is going to pick up a bigger efficiency increase than a 6.7 powerstroke bolted to a 10 speed
