Delvac 1 / Rotella T syn for '72 Ferrari?

[Pantdino]

I was reading the thread on cam wear and diesels, and it reminded me that the only real weak point of all the early four cam Ferrari engines was early camshaft lobe wear. ( I just checked mine and they're OK but show some "eggshelling" at 6K miles since regrind.) So maybe I should go with an HDEO oil that's specifically designed to prevent this, as the other aspects of these oils are excellent also.

At the Mobil website it says Delvac 1 5W40 meets ACEA E5 specs. What's that? There's no mention of B.

The Rotella T 5W40 is listed as meeting API CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, and CF. No mention of other specs. Does that mean it's not as good as the Delvac 1?

And here's a possible scoop: On Mobil's site they also list Mobil 1 Truck and SUV oil. Here's the technical info:

Mobil 1 Truck & SUV is a 5W-40 viscosity grade product and is recommended by ExxonMobil where 5W-30, 10W-30 and 15W-40 lubricants are specified. Consult your owner's manual for specific manufacturer recommendations which may be required for warranty protection.
Mobil 1 Truck and SUV is recommended for use in gasoline and diesel powered trucks and SUVs built by Ford, GM, and DaimlerChrysler.
Mobil 1 Truck and SUV further meets the diesel engine requirements of Cummins, Powerstoke, Duramax and Navistar – for bigger, heavier duty truck applications, such as delivery vans and utility fleets.
Mobil 1 Truck and SUV is fully compatible with conventional engine oils.

Specifications & Approvals

Mobil 1 Truck & SUV meets or exceeds the following industry specifications:

API gasoline engine standards SL,SJ
API diesel engine standards CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF


Typical Properties

Mobil 1 Truck & SUV

SAE Grade 5W-40
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40ºC 102
cSt @ 100ºC 14.8
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 151
Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.35
Total Base #, mg KOH/g, ASTM D 2896 12
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -45
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 226
Density @ 15ºC kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.854

These numbers are EXACTLY the same as those listed for Delvac 1. So the same oil in a different bottle for mass marketing? Would be an excellent business move!!

And for those who are interested, there are few choices for oil filters for a Ferrari. Back in the 70's the cars came with Frams, but as you know the company was bought out or whatever and now they make garbage. So we all started using UFI's which I think is OEM now. But then there was a problem with them blowing out their seals on startup, so you suddenly had 8 quarts of oil on your garage floor. Most people switched to Baldwin filters at that time. UFI has probably fixed that problem by now, but a lot of people still use Baldwins because they seem at least as well made and are usually cheaper. I bought a bunch of Baldwins back then and am still using my stock.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Delvac-1 is a better oil! It is 100% synthetic. Delvac-1 is 26% Ester and 74% PAO base stocks. TO theis they add their additive package! Rotella T Synthetic is really not that great compared to Delvac-1 one. RTS is a good oil but it main claim to fame is it's 1/2 the priceof Delvac-1.

Next time you get them reground see if they can be re-heat treated or nitrided! In the 70's and early 80's most cams were just surface heat treated today most cams are heat treated their full depth or close to it. The exception would be the sintered metal lobes used on some cars and trucks!

[ February 21, 2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]

 

[Dr. T]

Dude, although you probably might be 100% fine with the Delvac 1 (aka M-1 SUV), why take the chance? You've already posted opinions on what oil to use in your vintage Ferrari...so what now, you want opinions on using a Diesel oil?

Even the opinions on what oil to use in you relatively modern 1995 BMW spec'd high performance 50 weights, so why use an even thinner synthetic for your Ferrari?

Yes, they're the same product. The ACEA ratings includingt E5 can be found on acea.com. I think this one (from memory) is a motor oil for both gas and diesel engines suitable for extended drains (~10k mi. - something you're not doing in your Ferrari either).

Is the Delvac better than the Shell Rotella because it has more 'specs'? Not necessarily....you'd need to try each out and do UOA's to find out if it's better or worse in your particular application.

 

[heyjay]

I'd say if Ferrari recommended a 20W-50 back then, you should probably stick with a 20W-50 or with Mobil 1 15W-50.

Most of those older motors used seal materials NOT compatible with esters and PAO's, and your rebuild was when? Early 80's? Hmmm, I'd worry about that.

HDEO's are a fine choice for most gassers, as the additive package is superior. You can usually find cross-certified CI-4/SL oils out there, and Delvac 1 is such an oil.

Yes, Mobil 1 Truck & SUV appears to be a rebadged Delvac 1. It's just missing the ACEA Ex ratings and the specific Cummins and Mack approvals.

The ACEA E5 spec is rare here. It's usually found on European HD diesels from Scania, Volvo, MAN, MTU, Mercedes Benz, etc.

ACEA E5:Stable, stay-in-grade oil providing effective control with respect to piston cleanliness and bore polishing. It further provides improved wear and turbocharger deposit control, soot handling and lubricant stability compared to E3. It is recommended for highly rated diesel engines meeting Euro 1, Euro 2 and Euro 3 emission requirements and running under severe conditions, e.g. extended oil drain intervals according to the manufacturers recommendations.

Again, you have a nice "classic" car. I'd be leery of running a full synthetic without knowing what type of seals, especially valve seals, were put in that motor.

Jerry

 

[JohnBrowning]

hejay, He has rebuilt this engine. THe seals are brand new and made from modern materials. He will not have seal issues. I belive it was a $9000 rebuild!

 

[javacontour]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
hejay, He has rebuilt this engine. THe seals are brand new and made from modern materials. He will not have seal issues. I belive it was a $9000 rebuild!

---

In 1986. I keep saying this asking if it makes a difference, but no one answers.

What seals were used in 1986?

TB

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Pantdino - in your original thread on this car I suggested you use either of these two oils

I still do!

Regards

 

[KW]

quote:

---

Originally posted by javacontour:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
hejay, He has rebuilt this engine. THe seals are brand new and made from modern materials. He will not have seal issues. I belive it was a $9000 rebuild!

---

In 1986. I keep saying this asking if it makes a difference, but no one answers.

What seals were used in 1986?

TB

---

As far as I can tell they were the same as nowadays. I think it's the oil that has improved not the seals.

 

[Pantdino]

My thinking is that it may be worth going with a slightly lower viscosity if it means using an oil that is especially good at protecting the only real weakness in the engine.

I don't know what the weight of the originally recommended Shell Super oil was, and there's a good chance it was 20-50. But back then in Italy there was the very real chance that an owner would use the car to cruise at 140 mph for a hour or so and the oil would get seriously hot. I won't be doing that. (Unfortunately!) So maybe the 5-40 would be OK.

In case someone has never seen a Ferrari Dino, you can see some photos of mine at this address:

http://hometown.aol.com/oddiefam/jimsferrari.html

Thanks for all your help!! Being able to narrow the choice to M1 15-50 vs. Delvac 1 is like narrowing down to one of two straws in a haystack! I've decided that the extra cost for oil for this car is negligible, so I'm going for whatever is best.

There was a time when I would have thought all this effort was ridiculous, but I recently went thru a similar process of information gathering in choosing a gear oil for the transaxles in my cars. I found that the StaLube I'd been using was not correct at all and have chosen Red Line 75-90 NS in hopes of smoother shifting and longer synchro wear.

 

[Jelly]

Pantdino,

Some get caught up on the viscosity issue, but people fail to remember that the viscosity suggestion by Ferrari is based upon PCEO's from the 1970's, not HDEO's in 2004.

While Rotella-T 5w-40 is a very good oil, it's claim to fame is being an oil at a low price that gives you an alternative to the traditional 15w-40 HDEO's without having a spend a great deal more.

I fully believe that either oil will "wonderfully" protect this engine, and while Delvac 1 is without a doubt a superior oil in terms of basestock and thus have better low temperature pumping properties, I can't promise that it will deliver much better wear results unless you extended the drain intervals way on out there.

Delvac 1 is at least twice as expensive as Rotella 5w-40 ($12 vs. $25-30 gallon), and you'll have to decide for yourself if it is worth it in this application...

While I'm a big-believer in full-synthetic lubes in axles and transmissions (etc, etc...), I'm not so die-hard about using them in the engine itself, simply because I enjoy changing engine oil and don't run super-long drain intervals.

You obviously have a few dollars layin' around, and I can't even imaging what it'd be like to be in your shoes (hey, I'm just a college student...), but if I were in your shoes, I'd go over to Wal-Mart, spend $12/gallon on Rotella 5w-40 and make sure to buy a very high quality air and oil filter.

[ February 22, 2004, 03:12 AM: Message edited by: Jelly ]

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
it is worth noting that Porsche motors built from the late 1970's were enabled for synthetic lubricants

It would seem perfectly logical that a competitor - Ferrari - would have planned the same way

The 5w aspect of the synthetic Rotella T or Delvac 1 is why I suggested these oils in the first post

Regards,

Doug Hillary
02 Subaru Outback 2.5 AWD (Delvac 1)
98 BMW Z3 2.8 (Delvac 1)
89 Porsche 928 S4 V8 (Delvac 1)

[ February 22, 2004, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[AV8R]

Pantdino: It would be helpful for you to know more about what what you are dealing with before you try to choose an engine oil. Your head shop (the automotive one) can tell you the valve seating pressure and the open pressure, as well as the cam lift, duration, base circle, and lobe centers. This information can tell you a lot about the dynamic forces the camshaft is seeing. Is the cam pattern original, or does the grind take advantage of modern profiles that give lower accelerations and equal or better performance? What redline speed are you using? If you do not regularly go out on Sundays and play Phil Hill, and can live with a lower redline, you may be able to reduce your spring pressures to 90 lb. or so and gain lots of reliable, moderate-rpm (say 6500) service life, something that may not be possible as the car is now with any oil, regardless of base stock or additives. You can only go so far, and Ferrari usually went farther.

 

[TooSlick]

If I owned one of these, I'd start out with a 20w-50 synthetic and see how that does, in terms of oil pressure and oil consumption. I would break in the engine for at least 3000 miles on a petroleum based 20w-50 blend or 15w-40 ....

So, I'd recommend the Mobil 1, 15w-50 for the same reasons ...you can always go down to 5w-40 the next time around, but 15w-50 should do very well here....

TS