Defective / Torn Oil Filter - Champ PH2801 6k miles

[92saturnsl2]

Changed the oil in my '04 Odyssey today and decided to cut open the used filter. It is a Champ brand filter, sourced from a Rockauto closeout a couple years ago. Looks to be a Champ Labs made filter-- not sure when they stopped making this style filter, but I imagine it's more than a few years old because I can't remember seeing this style in quite a while. It's the kind with 5 round holes for the inlet, where one hole is larger than the other, has coil spring bypass on the threaded end.

Ran for 6k miles using Philips Choice Shield 10w-30. I've cut open plenty of unused RA closeout filters that were 10-20+ years old, and the media has always seemed fine (not brittle or compromised) despite the age. I personally don't think this is age related, but rather the extremely wide pleat spacing in that location; I've never seen one that wide. ADBV was in good condition, still very flexible.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

I'll be darned a Champ O lator.

 

[Vern_in_IL]

There is some SERIOUS pleat spacing issues.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by 92saturnsl2
I personally don't think this is age related, but rather the extremely wide pleat spacing in that location; I've never seen one that wide.


Yep, wide pleat spacing has always been the common factor in torn media.

 

[walterjay]

Certainly not good.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

I'm guessing rockauto charged you around $1.33 for that closeout filter. The Champ for my Colorado is $1.55 today.
I always pass. Heck, I would pass if rockauto gave them away for free.

 

[92saturnsl2]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
I'm guessing rockauto charged you around $1.33 for that closeout filter. The Champ for my Colorado is $1.55 today.
I always pass. Heck, I would pass if rockauto gave them away for free.


Yep, probably around that price. Pretty much all I use are RA closeout filters and out of dozens of good experiences, this one came up short. I'm not losing any sleep over it and will continue to buy them. To each their own. Folks that buy brand new filters still encounter a dud every once in awhile.

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
I'll be darned a Champ O lator.

Post of the day winner for sure....

 

[Sayjac]

This is a very odd Champ filter. These Champ label generally known as jobber tier filters, yet this one uses the thread end bypass found in some M1 and Champ Labs higher tier filters. Obviously pleat spacing very poor and likely cause of tear. Seeing as this filter RA sourced and on closeout though, I be interested in seeing the date code on dome.

Topic vehicle specs 7317 application and equivalents, topic filter xref look up makes no mention of 7317. Entered in Fram look up, direct xref is to PH2921 with applications being OPE, Cat. and some very old vehicles. Not sure how RA arrived at topic filter for Honda Odyssey, but I wouldn't have run it on one if mine.

Thanks for c&p.

 

[92saturnsl2]

Quote
Topic vehicle specs 7317 application and equivalents, topic filter xref look up makes no mention of 7317. Entered in Fram look up, direct xref is to PH2921 with applications being OPE, Cat. and some very old vehicles. Not sure how RA arrived at topic filter for Honda Odyssey, but I wouldn't have run it on one if mine.


To my knowledge the Champ PH2921 crosses over to a Fram PH3985, a quick Google search confirmed this. The PH3985 was used on many AMC vehicles like the Eagle Premier with PRV engine. Its specs match that of the PH7317 except for being physically larger- gasket size, bypass rating, thread pitch, etc. are all the same.

I've used the PH3985 in place of PH7317 and PH3593a where space allows as far back as I can remember. Never had any issues.

FWIW, The Fram equivalent of a Champ PH2921 is a PH2811. The numbers do not cross over identically like you'd expect.

 

[Sayjac]

Seems like a convoluted xref process 'to me' to the spec 7317. I'm fairly familiar with Honda OF filter specs dating back to mid 90's and the only one of those alternative filter numbers I recognize as direct cross to earlier/older Hondas (pre 01-02) is 3593a which is same size as 9688 in Fram, 14459 Puro, 5/1334 Wix/NG. As noted I went with direct Fram cross to topic PH2801 for applications. Never meant to imply it wouldn't screw on.

That said, as long as you're satisfied your vehicle. While I wouldn't have run it except where absolutely nothing else available, to each their own. I still would like to know/see the date code.

 

[Oily_Thing]

Factory Seconds?

 

[DudeNiceRide]

That's technically a "collapse" failure. If the media tears and/or if the center column buckles, it's a collapse.

Primary failure mode is poor pleat spacing. Media is really "springy" once it's baked. Sometimes it doesn't like to cooperate.

Secondary failure - looking at the pics. The check valve is LITERALLY right in front of the bypass valve. Get that oil up to operating temp, and that rubber is nice & pliable, meaning those little "feet" on the back of the check valve would not have much rigidity to prevent the CV from blanketing the PRV holes. Partially or fully-blocked PRV could result in spike in pressure delta across the filter which could result in a "collapse" event.

 

[Sayjac]

As noted, OP thread end bypass a long time Champ Labs design used on their upper tier filters. That includes some M1 and even in the factory FoMoCo filter when Champ Labs made them, as posted this subforum. Excepting silicone adbv in FoMoCo and M1 filters, identical design. My take, zero wrong with the Champ Labs thread end bypass design in OP.

As mentioned previously several posts, very poor pleat spacing uniformity the most obvious and likely cause. Specifically the wide pleat spacing area where vast majority post use anecdote tears from all brands seen.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by DudeNiceRide
Secondary failure - looking at the pics. The check valve is LITERALLY right in front of the bypass valve. Get that oil up to operating temp, and that rubber is nice & pliable, meaning those little "feet" on the back of the check valve would not have much rigidity to prevent the CV from blanketing the PRV holes. Partially or fully-blocked PRV could result in spike in pressure delta across the filter which could result in a "collapse" event.


No way to tell for sure, but even if those standoff feet on the back side of the ADBV collapsed some, there's no way the back side of the ADBV could lay perfectly flat over all the holes on the bypass valve and seal it off.

 

[Job]

There was an M1 cut that had at lest as wide pleats in the usual area. Bad manufacturing probably along with old media in this case. I bought a whole case of highly regarded filters from RA and used one. I had to take it off because the start up knocking even when oil warm was terrible. Never buy old stock again. These were the old blue Denso btw beautifully made filters. Past their useful life. Never had that happen in my life, lesson learned don't be cheap on oil filters.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted by DudeNiceRide

Secondary failure - looking at the pics. The check valve is LITERALLY right in front of the bypass valve. Get that oil up to operating temp, and that rubber is nice & pliable, meaning those little "feet" on the back of the check valve would not have much rigidity to prevent the CV from blanketing the PRV holes. Partially or fully-blocked PRV could result in spike in pressure delta across the filter which could result in a "collapse" event.


I'm in with Zee, your theory is fake news. The feet plus the design of the ADBV prevent this. Remember that once the engine is running, both sides of the ADBV are at essentially the same pressure so PSID=~0, and the amount of flow will determine how much the ADBV is "lifted" from the inlet holes. Since overall filter flow is limited by the exit diameter, and no normal engine can pump more oil than this hole can handle, you're never going to be able to generate the kind of force needed to collapse the ADBV backwards, let alone seal it off completely long enough to block flow. My interpretation may not be entirely correct with respect to physics, but its surely closer than the idea that the ADBV can block the PRV. Don't you think that's been tested, since this design is used by multiple filter manufacturers?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

 

[Sayjac]

Quote
... your theory is fake news....
I prefer to call it false/inaccurate information posted about the Champ Labs thread end design. Although as I read it, my conclusion was more along the lines of, 'when you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bovine excrement.' There's nothing wrong with the long time Champ Labs thread end bypass design.

Linked is site showing identical Champ Labs thread end bypass design on higher tier M1 and K&N, scroll. If further interested, google bitog site and insert FoMoCo Ford Focus Factory Filter, see identical design. As noted I'm surprised topic lower filter didn't use more common Champ blue button dome bypass, but I suspect filter age could be a factor.

https://www.svtperformance.com/threads/are-there-significant-differences-in-oil-filters.849475/

 

[DudeNiceRide]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by DudeNiceRide

Secondary failure - looking at the pics. The check valve is LITERALLY right in front of the bypass valve. Get that oil up to operating temp, and that rubber is nice & pliable, meaning those little "feet" on the back of the check valve would not have much rigidity to prevent the CV from blanketing the PRV holes. Partially or fully-blocked PRV could result in spike in pressure delta across the filter which could result in a "collapse" event.


I'm in with Zee, your theory is fake news. The feet plus the design of the ADBV prevent this. Remember that once the engine is running, both sides of the ADBV are at essentially the same pressure so PSID=~0, and the amount of flow will determine how much the ADBV is "lifted" from the inlet holes. Since overall filter flow is limited by the exit diameter, and no normal engine can pump more oil than this hole can handle, you're never going to be able to generate the kind of force needed to collapse the ADBV backwards, let alone seal it off completely long enough to block flow. My interpretation may not be entirely correct with respect to physics, but its surely closer than the idea that the ADBV can block the PRV. Don't you think that's been tested, since this design is used by multiple filter manufacturers?


Fake news my foot! It's simply a theory, guys. Sheesh -- lighten up!

Sure there are feet on that check valve, but rubber gets nice and pliable at 300degF. And those PRV ports will get awfully thirsty.

Don't need "force" to collapse a filter. Just need a little water in the oil sump and BAM your media is completely compromised, and oil is looking for the next path of least resistance. Running at a higher differential in bypass-mode, a weak spot in the media (that flat pleat) could be exploited. Certainly plausible with everything I know about filtration paper.