Dealer used 5.5qts for my 10qts capacity Blackwing

[Deleted member 89374]

This is a car I intend to keep for 10, 15, heck maybe 20 years so to have this happen at this juncture makes me way to cry.

I'd love to read an update from you. What have you done thus far? Tomorrow is Friday. Will you "mull it over", during this weekend?

To everyone else here saying that "it'll be alright" and there is "nothing to worry about": I dare you to drive around in your vehicle with the sump filled only at half capacity, and rev the engine "only" up to 4.5K RPM.

I'm not going to repeat what I posted here: https://hplu.be/what-u-should-do. I will only add that you should definitively contact GM/Cadillac, explain what happened, and ask to have a conversation with someone from their powertrain engineering team. If the general manager from the dealership is present during that conversation, even better. Something like that should clarify the situation for you and settle it pretty quickly. However, if you prefer to read pages of speculations-on-end, be my guest. Still, I'd love to read an update and a happy conclusion for your situation.

 

[Nesterenko]

, and the first change is covered by Cadillac.

100 large purchase, geez ain't that mighty generous of them.

 

[userfriendly]

100 large purchase, geez ain't that mighty generous of them.

The coffee machine just happens to be in the customers' service waiting room.
While you are getting your "free" oil change(s), sales staff just happen by, about one every 5 minutes.
The customers may also wander around the show room kicking tires and looking at brand propaganda.
Again, a salesperson will just happen by, on his or her way for another refill.
Smart sales staff will log onto the service appointments de jour, so they can time their coffee room visits with the arrival of
potential new car/truck sales.
One salesman told me that more than half of his sales come after hours, when people like to look at new vehicles without the
high pressure of sales people in the lot.

 

[PWMDMD]

We're talking about making mistakes not working hard. I'd say that the bored oil technician should be given a break. Afterall on a yearly basis 40,000 to 80,000 patients die every year due to misdiagnosis and around 12,000,000 patients are misdiagnosed in general. We don't stop going to see a doctor because of it.

You're going to equate the complexity of diagnosing human disease, something that takes a doctor a minimum of 10-15 years of training because it’s so difficult and can many times not be at all obvious or straightforward, to the simple act of changing oil? Ok..perfectly logical argument there.

This guy simply didn't bother to look up how much oil the vehicle needed or he got distracted and forgot how much he put in and he did not check the level before finishing the job. I like rules and to be methodical and to do things the exact same way every time to minimize mistakes. Do you know what my #1 rule would be? ALWAYS check the oil level before I finish! It's a REALLY SIMPLE and EASY to remember rule. That guy was just being lazy with someone's $100K vehicle and no it isn't acceptable!

BTW...needless medical mistakes aren't acceptable either but we seem to live in a society where we love to make excuses for poor performance and laziness which then becomes a self-perpetuating reason for why we have so many people who perform poorly and are lazy. It's not too much to ask to have your oil changed correctly every single time!

 

[Trav]

I understand how you feel, but it's probably OK. If it were dangerously low on oil, you would have had an oil temp spike.

That didn't happen.

The extra capacity is just that - extra. Not needed to cover the oil pickup. Since you didn't track it, or even get on it, then you didn't uncover the pickup, even momentarily.

Which means the oil pump continued to do its job and the engine is OK.

IMHO that pretty much sums it up, the pickup was never left uncovered.

 

[Zee09]

You're going to equate the complexity of diagnosing human disease, something that takes a doctor a minimum of 10-15 years of training because it’s so difficult and can many times not be at all obvious or straightforward, to the simple act of changing oil? Ok..perfectly logical argument there.

This guy simply didn't bother to look up how much oil the vehicle needed or he got distracted and forgot how much he put in and he did not check the level before finishing the job. I like rules and to be methodical and to do things the exact same way every time to minimize mistakes. Do you know what my #1 rule would be? ALWAYS check the oil level before I finish! It's a REALLY SIMPLE and EASY to remember rule. That guy was just being lazy with someone's $100K vehicle and no it isn't acceptable!

BTW...needless medical mistakes aren't acceptable either but we seem to live in a society where we love to make excuses for poor performance and laziness which then becomes a self-perpetuating reason for why we have so many people who perform poorly and are lazy. It's not too much to ask to have your oil changed correctly every single time!

Yeah the standard of care was zero... Unacceptable even if a used vehicle worth only $5k.

 

[John105]

You're going to equate the complexity of diagnosing human disease, something that takes a doctor a minimum of 10-15 years of training because it’s so difficult and can many times not be at all obvious or straightforward, to the simple act of changing oil? Ok..perfectly logical argument there.

This guy simply didn't bother to look up how much oil the vehicle needed or he got distracted and forgot how much he put in and he did not check the level before finishing the job. I like rules and to be methodical and to do things the exact same way every time to minimize mistakes. Do you know what my #1 rule would be? ALWAYS check the oil level before I finish! It's a REALLY SIMPLE and EASY to remember rule. That guy was just being lazy with someone's $100K vehicle and no it isn't acceptable!

BTW...needless medical mistakes aren't acceptable either but we seem to live in a society where we love to make excuses for poor performance and laziness which then becomes a self-perpetuating reason for why we have so many people who perform poorly and are lazy. It's not too much to ask to have your oil changed correctly every single time!

My son had a simple fracture of his leg at age 6.5. The medical system was to put it mildly, a joke. I get that insurance has a lot to do with it.

Long story short, the person in charge of putting on the cast, was a 2nd week intern. I'm not going to mince words. PATHETIC. He told us I've never done a cast before so I'm calling the attending. I told him son, you're going to make a fine doctor. I guarantee you at least 5/10 interns would go ahead and learn on my son. This happens way too much and likely in auto repair as well.

p.s. I highly doubt that when I broke my wrist, my mom thought about cost for one second. But a simple broken leg for a child in 2019 was $19k. Time to stock up on Duck brand genuine bubble wrap

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

You're going to equate the complexity of diagnosing human disease, something that takes a doctor a minimum of 10-15 years of training because it’s so difficult and can many times not be at all obvious or straightforward, to the simple act of changing oil? Ok..perfectly logical argument there.

This guy simply didn't bother to look up how much oil the vehicle needed or he got distracted and forgot how much he put in and he did not check the level before finishing the job. I like rules and to be methodical and to do things the exact same way every time to minimize mistakes. Do you know what my #1 rule would be? ALWAYS check the oil level before I finish! It's a REALLY SIMPLE and EASY to remember rule. That guy was just being lazy with someone's $100K vehicle and no it isn't acceptable!

BTW...needless medical mistakes aren't acceptable either but we seem to live in a society where we love to make excuses for poor performance and laziness which then becomes a self-perpetuating reason for why we have so many people who perform poorly and are lazy. It's not too much to ask to have your oil changed correctly every single time!

My father was a Navy surgeon (Vietnam) and then spent 30 years in private practice. I have the stories and there's plenty of data to back it up that fact that MD's have been making simple surgery errors for decades. This isn't new but the tracking became better so it has been almost impossible to hide it.

Again my point is that people make mistakes over the simplest things especially then they are either rushed or distracted. Nobody is immune and in many cases the only thing preventing a mistake is that the much of the decision making process has been automated.

 

[PWMDMD]

My father was a Navy surgeon (Vietnam) and then spent 30 years in private practice. I have the stories and there's plenty of data to back it up that fact that MD's have been making simple surgery errors for decades. This isn't new but the tracking became better so it has been almost impossible to hide it.

Again my point is that people make mistakes over the simplest things especially then they are either rushed or distracted. Nobody is immune and in many cases the only thing preventing a mistake is that the much of the decision making process has been automated.

I’m not defending mistakes in medicine. I’m fighting the idea that it’s ok to lower the bar simply because mistakes happen - especially with simple mistakes. You wrote about automation - every single time I’ve bright my car to quick lube place I’m shown the dip stick with the oil level - not quite automation but a simple and effective way of being sure there is at least the correct amount of oil in the car. Owner’s not around make a check list…whatever. Put systems in place to be sure this doesn’t happen if the systems are followed. If the lube tech doesn’t follow the systems then that should mean termination.

BTW…this is as much on management as the oil tech - clearly there aren’t easy systems in place, like what I wrote about above, to prevent these simple mistakes.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I’m not defending mistakes in medicine. I’m fighting the idea that it’s ok to lower the bar simply because mistakes happen - especially with simple mistakes. You wrote about automation - every single time I’ve bright my car to quick lube place I’m shown the dip stick with the oil level - not quite automation but a simple and effective way of being sure there is at least the correct amount of oil in the car. Owner’s not around make a check list…whatever. Put systems in place to be sure this doesn’t happen if the systems are followed. If the lube tech doesn’t follow the systems then that should mean termination.

BTW…this is as much on management as the oil tech - clearly there aren’t easy systems in place, like what I wrote about above, to prevent these simple mistakes.

Ya I agree mgmt has a lot to do with it which is why I mentioned whether the tech has the proper inducements/incentives. Is the system set up to be foolproof? Apparently not. I'm surprised that a system which relies on a VIN scan hasn't been implemented with regards to dispensing the proper amount of oil but perhaps I'm asking for too much.

Anecdotal story. After BMW launched the 335d and X5 35d in the US back in 2009 the oil capacity became based on the color of the plastic gradient at the end of the dipstick rather than the official capacity per the specs. IIRC the difference was something like 1/2 liter and I doubt the technicians knew about it.

 

[cb_13]

Why?

If you door ding my vehicle at the grocery store do you expect your insurance to buy me a new one? If I don’t fix it, it’s damaged. If I do it’ll show on car fax, that will hurt the value. Shouldn’t I get a new car?

 

[Deleted member 89374]

If you door ding my vehicle at the grocery store do you expect your insurance to buy me a new one? If I don’t fix it, it’s damaged. If I do it’ll show on car fax, that will hurt the value. Shouldn’t I get a new car?

Fabulous logic comparing a door ding that has no impact whatsoever on a vehicle's value to about $40K engine damage due to the dealer's negligence. I don't place any blame on the guy who performed the oil change. It is up to the dealership to hire the right people for the job. That starts with the service manager who has to make sure that the people who handle customer's vehicles know what they're doing.

Here's a fact for you: I purchased my 2022 Dodge Durango GT Plus AWD with a door ding that I found only after I signed all the paperwork. The dealer wanted their body shop to fix it, but I turned them down because I didn't want them taking apart the door on a brand new vehicle and applying Bondo and paint to it. Instead, I opted for a paintless dent repair, and asked the dealer to reimburse. They happily agreed and all was well. By the way, the dent repair was $150 and it took a couple of hours. So no, a door ding doesn't even compare as it cannot have the life altering impact on a person that a $40K engine repair can.

You're going to equate the complexity of diagnosing human disease, something that takes a doctor a minimum of 10-15 years of training because it’s so difficult and can many times not be at all obvious or straightforward, to the simple act of changing oil? Ok..perfectly logical argument there.

He probably never watched Dr. House.

BTW...needless medical mistakes aren't acceptable either but we seem to live in a society where we love to make excuses for poor performance and laziness which then becomes a self-perpetuating reason for why we have so many people who perform poorly and are lazy. It's not too much to ask to have your oil changed correctly every single time!

I agree, mistakes like these are unacceptable. Then again, consider that there are some who like to post comments to trigger others. I'm a hundred percent sure that a hundred percent of the people on this forum would be outraged and find it unacceptable if this happened to them. Sadly enough, some like to trigger other for their own entertainment.

Speaking of triggering, I wonder about @LT4Life. His story sounds genuine, however, I wouldn't put it past anyone to start a thread like this and then sit back and enjoy the bickering. He hasn't posted a single update, or even pictures of his vehicle. I find it hard to believe that someone who can afford a $100K vehicle has a problem dealing with a situation like this. Successful people aren't lazy and don't embrace mediocrity, at all. They expect no less from others, and typically they are on top of situations like these. Since none of us can give him an answer for sure, I stand by my suggestion that he should consult with GM/Cadillac engineering and customer service and then take it from there. I'm sure that once he takes action in that direction, the dealership will be more amenable to working with him, whatever it is that he wants to do, including trading in his vehicle for a new one. The dealership caused this problem for the OP, it's on them to make it right. Why should he have to live with the fear of catastrophic engine failure and even deal with it at some point, because the dealership was negligent with his property?

 

[TiGeo]

In all likelihood, this is an 19-20 y.o. person doing this. Bottom end/entry level job. It doesn't justify mistakes or not caring as has been repeated here ad-nauseum but the fact is we all do/have made them.

I come from the mining industry and this convo reminds me a bit of it w/r to blaming the person vs. the admin/management bits w/r to safety incidents. Any incident (I was a trained investigator for the company I worked for at the time) would typically come down to either a blatent disregard for procedures/policies or a lack of training or managment for the person involved. Here with oil changes, it's similar. How was this person trained? What likely happened is this person is hired and showed the shop and told to get to work with a bit of oversight by a more senior tech. The reality is that there is likely no formal training, no formal SOPs, and no check system that any vehicle once done is verified b/c the more senior tech has a day job and gets paid to work not check on someone else. That is how this actually works like it or not. The kid (most likely) made a mistake. It could have cost the dealership a new car or engine. He should be diciplined and re-trained. Or maybe he is really a lazy person that will alway change oil for min. wage.

My middle son is 18 and works at a GMC/Buick dealer as a helper/tech in training. He went through the county's tech center auto program as he decided that he didn't want to go to 4-year college. My wife and I both support this and he's been happy with his choice; he graduates in a few mos. He will be a helper for a few years then can move to be a flat-rate technician. He will earn a good living if he hustles and has good attention to detail (clearly the issue in this post) - flat rate is a double-edge sword and can/does incentivze bad behavior...we have talked at great length about it. He has also made a mistake that nearly cost him his job....he forgot the oil in a vehicle. It was caught thank goodness by the tech he works under. He was removed from the shop to a different part of the dealer for period of time as discipline until the service manage could regain some trust. I think that this was fair and deserved 100%. We talked about it when he came home and told me about it. My question to him was "What are the steps you follow to do an oil change?". His response was that he drains the oil and removes the filter first. Then, he goes to the parts counter to get the filter/oil. So there it is....a procedural mistake. I couldn't believe they didn't have all the supplies at the work station first before doing it. He told me that's how all the techs do it and how he was showed. I told him that when I change oil, I get everything out. He clearly got distracted he said as he was asked to do another task in the middle of the job and there it is...the source of the mistake. The one being dicussed here was clearly about not understanding the fill volume and clearly not verifying the level before sending it out. So from now one, he will change his procedure. I also told him that he should always have the tech he works under check his work 100% regardless if he is grumpy about it. I would make myself a small check list booklet to fill out when I was done. Right oil? Right volume? Filter? Drain plug? Verified oil level once complete? Lug nuts torqued to spec and verified? We had these for tasks at the mine w/r to safety called a "take 2" (take 2 minutes to think about a task). Going to work under a powerline? Going to have possible enviro spill issues? Do I need any additional PPE? And so on.

I have made one mistake I recall changing my own oil, not putting the drain plug back in and watched the oil spill out all over the floor (it's amazing I've been so sucessful in life apparently).

My bad oil change story was for my Focus and why I always check things when folks work on them. It was in for a free oil change I had with purchase. I picked it up from the dealer and went to my son's baseball game. I could smell oil and see smoke. The tech left the oil cap off. I talked to the dealer/service manage and they sorted it out to my satisfaction including cleaning up the engine bay mess that it caused. That car is now 10 years old/125K and runs perfectly. Ever since that time I always checked it before even driving out of the dealer's lot vs. getting home. Who knows what that happened, my take is it's b/c they got distracted and nobody went back to check the work. Maybe they were fired. Who knows.

I take this one pretty personally when some folks here are commenting about how folks that make a mistake like this are clearly lazy, careless, and won't go anywhere in life...he's 18. This IS how you learn. I've made a few whoppers in my career as well and owned it/learned from them - that is what I am trying to instill in him. I bet he won't make that one again.

To the OP - bummer on this...what an amzing car you have! As has been discussed here, I would just talk to the dealership and explain that you are concerned and would like to speak to someone from GM personally about it. Asking for an additional warranty is certainly not unreasonble but be ready to hear "no" b/c GM is likely going to say this wasn't an issue justifying it and it has been fixed. Good luck and for the love of God folks, check your oil level before you leave a shop that changes you oil....so many stories of mistakes around here and elsewhere, it's a high volume/low paying job and expecting excellence is well...here we are like it or not.

 

[FastLane]

I'm sure your engine is fine. I wouldn't be all that happy though.

If you changed the oil, and had half the oil in it required, and had some sort of engine failure.... GM would be blaming you.

 

[cb_13]

Fabulous logic comparing a door ding that has no impact whatsoever on a vehicle's value to about $40K engine damage due to the dealer's negligence. I don't place any blame on the guy who performed the oil change. It is up to the dealership to hire the right people for the job. That starts with the service manager who has to make sure that the people who handle customer's vehicles know what they're doing.

Here's a fact for you: I purchased my 2022 Dodge Durango GT Plus AWD with a door ding that I found only after I signed all the paperwork. The dealer wanted their body shop to fix it, but I turned them down because I didn't want them taking apart the door on a brand new vehicle and applying Bondo and paint to it. Instead, I opted for a paintless dent repair, and asked the dealer to reimburse. They happily agreed and all was well. By the way, the dent repair was $150 and it took a couple of hours. So no, a door ding doesn't even compare as it cannot have the life altering impact on a person that a $40K engine repair can.

I feel a customer is entitled to made reimbursed for any damage. If he can PROVE engine damage throw a reman in it. If not an extended powertrain warranty would be acceptable.

The idea that my stuff is more valuable and I should PROFIT from others mistakes is not a line of thinking I subscribe too. Apparently you do and that’s your prerogative, I just disagree.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

@TiGeo A Cadillac Blackwing is a halo car for GM, not to mention very expensive. You don't let your inexperienced lube tech work on that vehicle. That's bad management, right there. Back when I still changed the oil at the dealership, I would ask for certain technicians by name, because I knew them. If they weren't available, I would either leave the car there or come on a different day. As a customer it is perfectly reasonable to ask the service advisor that a senior technician works on your expensive vehicle. Then again, as a customer, you shouldn't be concerned with that.

You're talking about lessons learned here, and the mistake your son made. That's all good and well. But what about the dealership? I'm not talking about the dealership where your son works, I'm talking about the OP's dealership. What lesson will they learn if they get away with this unscathed? I tell you what they will learn: that neglect has no consequences, and they'll do it again and again to other people. My local Hyundai dealer has two to four vehicles per year where a service tech forgets to put oil in the engine, and they still haven't learned their lesson.

This isn't about empathy for the tech who did the work, IMHO, it's not his fault. Obviously he wasn't ready to work on that vehicle. But someone told him to. Imagine if people who can't pass a driving test would still be given a driver's license. Who's fault would it be when they cause an accident?

 

[Deleted member 89374]

If he can PROVE engine damage throw a reman in it.

Again, fabulous logic. There is no "reman" for a Blackwing engine. Do you even know what kind of engine it is? But even it there was a reman option... in a $100K vehicle with 1500 miles on the odometer?

The idea that my stuff is more valuable and I should PROFIT from others mistakes is not a line of thinking I subscribe too.

The OP claims that he's got a brand new vehicle, with 1500 miles on the clock. All he wanted was his oil changed, and none of these complications. I'm confused... how would he profit in any way?

Apparently you do and that’s your prerogative, I just disagree.

What's that supposed to mean? Who are you to make assumptions about me, and why are you making this personal?

 

[cb_13]

Who are you to make assumptions about me, and why are you making this personal?

Not trying to make this a personal attack. Sorry, if that’s how you took it, I’m not trying to hurt feelings or ruffle feathers. Good day, sir.

 

[TiGeo]

@TiGeo A Cadillac Blackwing is a halo car for GM, not to mention very expensive. You don't let your inexperienced lube tech work on that vehicle. That's bad management, right there. Back when I still changed the oil at the dealership, I would ask for certain technicians by name, because I knew them. If they weren't available, I would either leave the car there or come on a different day. As a customer it is perfectly reasonable to ask the service advisor that a senior technician works on your expensive vehicle. Then again, as a customer, you shouldn't be concerned with that.

You're talking about lessons learned here, and the mistake your son made. That's all good and well. But what about the dealership? I'm not talking about the dealership where your son works, I'm talking about the OP's dealership. What lesson will they learn if they get away with this unscathed? I tell you what they will learn: that neglect has no consequences, and they'll do it again and again to other people. My local Hyundai dealer has two to four vehicles per year where a service tech forgets to put oil in the engine, and they still haven't learned their lesson.

This isn't about empathy for the tech who did the work, IMHO, it's not his fault. Obviously he wasn't ready to work on that vehicle. But someone told him to. Imagine if people who can't pass a driving test would still be given a driver's license. Who's fault would it be when they cause an accident?

I'm aware of that the Cadillac Blackwing is and how much they cost.

My posts here for the most part agree with you. Yes, the dealer in the end is responsible to make sure techs are trained and procedures are in place so this can't happen. I thought I was pretty clear there. Just adding some context for those that may not actually know how a dealership service dept. works and how this kind of thing can and does happen.

The bit about my son is in response to this comment which had nothing to do with you/your posts.

Perhaps that's why I am in life where I am and they are in life where they are.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

@TiGeo You don't let your inexperienced lube tech work on that vehicle. That's bad management, right there.

Ehhh, it’s a wet sump car, it’s not complicated.

The problem is that your experienced techs are already doing work that makes them (and the business) money. No experienced flat rate tech making $40+ an hour is going to be happy about doing an oil change unless there is no other work. You’re not going to pull a guy off a head gasket job (which also as discussed before can cause other problems by interrupting work flow) to do an oil change.