Current OBJECTIVE 100% Synthetic Comparison Data?

[EngineeringGeek]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
The only way you could know this is if you do a number of UOA's with both oils. Are you going to do this?

FYI, I commend your diligence and efforts. I do this kind of investigation numerous times at my workplace. In some (many) instances, I end up where I started. But, at least I am better educated about the subject matter.

Kudos for keeping your cool and replying intelligently to some of our lame rebuttals.


Thanks. I'm not sure if I'll try two different oils or not. If Brand A has a disappointing UOA at whatever interval I decide to change it that would provide incentive to try Brand B. But if Brand A is looking good, I'll probably just stick with it and keep that change interval or even extend it a bit.

If I do switch, and Brand B is no better, I'm not sure what I'd do at that point. I could go back to A, stay with B, or try something different (C). Odds are I'd just stick with B and shorten the change interval.

It's sort of interesting to look at the major brands from a standpoint of what their likely design goals are. Obviously each would like a competitive advantage of some sort to give their marketing department something real to work with rather than the usual F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty and doubt) and other useless nonsense.

Reading between the lines, and looking at the reports, it seems Castrol probably optimizes towards high temp high stress operation at the expense of cold performance. Pennzoil seems to go for lower deposits/cleaner operation and thinner viscosity/better cold performance. Valvoline emphasizes low wear and is fairly similar to Pennzoil. Mobil 1 is somewhere in the middle (but doesn't do very well at 150C HTHS or cold performance).

The three premium brands I looked at seem to mainly push their allegedly superior stocks--either because they're more green or otherwise somehow supposedly better. But I haven't seen any lab data that shows they perform any better overall than the current cheaper brands. The one exception being one of the "green/eco" synthetics I looked at had the best cold pumpability of any 5W30 I've seen but it was otherwise an unremarkable oil, it's at least 2X the cost, and it lacks several certifications the cheap oils have.

 

[Y_K]

Are you going to perform your oil changes yourself?

 

[EngineeringGeek]

Originally Posted By: Y_K
Are you going to perform your oil changes yourself?

Yup. I've had bad experiences doing otherwise. Why do you ask?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: EngineeringGeek
That's one reason I can't justify spending more than $5/quart. For 98% of road applications I can't see how any extra benefit you might get from a more expensive oil is likely to make any difference for as long as you'll have the car when you're comparing the top spec oils (i.e. A5, Dexos1, etc.).


With respect to your concern over off-brand oils, that's why I mentioned ensuring the use of oils that actually are certified, or at least are reputable enough and have non-spec oils in their lineup (i.e. RedLine, RP, Amsoil, etc.). As far as the PQIA goes, it would be nice if they did some more synthetic testing, but they've provided a wealth of information to us at no cost to us. I tend to use conventional, so am extremely grateful to them for the service they provide.

I've always stuck to name brand oils, be they gas station branded, big oil branded, or a big diesel engine manufacturer branded. That certainly does help in avoiding bad oils.

For the standards you're looking for and for somewhat extended drains, I doubt you'll have any problems with Synpower or PP. QSUD and the various flavors of M1 would work well, too.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Truth is, pouring over the UOA data on this site will probably give you a good idea as to what oils can best withstand long OCI's. And you'll also discover that no oils really do all that well when extended OCI's are done with lots of short trips in a cold climate.


This, along with the rest of what JOD stated. 'depending on where you live' is a big factor. Number of trips driven short(5 miles or less for instance as a generally accepted figure), in sub-freezing weather, and even in an engine that is 'easy' on oil may present a shot oil by 3,000 miles even if it's 'the best' at extended OCIs for YOUR app.

Case in point. We had an Amsoil ASM 0w-20 (IIRC) user post results from an F-150 that was shot after 3,000. The wear numbers had 'small' spikes as far as ppm, nothing alarming, but his trips were all 1 mile or less even, one way to work. He didn't drive the thing far at all, lived in Philadelphia I believe. Anyway, his UOA was within the past year if you search up the UOA section here.

Anyone has to find their engines capabilities through a general process of finding a starting point with any particular lube, run it out and get it sampled. No issues with the engine(coolant, air filtration, fuel dilution, oil cleanliness/soot or insols etc???), then find out how far you can push the OCI while staying within grade, no increase in contaminants at an elevated rate(ppm in basic UOA can even trend down by not changing oil too frequently, that is to say extended OCIs may be helpful to an engine in some aspects).

Aside from TBN retention on top of other critical factors, discoloration can occur more while performing extended OCIs in 'some' apps. Especially important is proper PCV valve/system function, as well as properly utilized oil filters/replacement intervals between oil changes.

This points to a critical aspect of extended OCIs, aside from basic areas of concern, such as cleanliness of the engine. If not 'indicated' by lube analysis or visibly inspected by removing a valve cover or dropping an oil pan etc...then one may have an uphill battle to start off with extending intervals and hoping for the best numbers while you already have varnish/deposits in a used/neglected app.

There is no black/white dichotomy here, but more an honest/truthful guideline. Which is why, in the end, most lubes are capable when used correctly in an app-by-app basis. Then, once established what your vehicle can do with a certain lube, as service conditions change to adjust accordingly.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: EngineeringGeek
That's one reason I can't justify spending more than $5/quart. For 98% of road applications I can't see how any extra benefit you might get from a more expensive oil is likely to make any difference for as long as you'll have the car when you're comparing the top spec oils (i.e. A5, Dexos1, etc.).


With respect to your concern over off-brand oils, that's why I mentioned ensuring the use of oils that actually are certified, or at least are reputable enough and have non-spec oils in their lineup (i.e. RedLine, RP, Amsoil, etc.). As far as the PQIA goes, it would be nice if they did some more synthetic testing, but they've provided a wealth of information to us at no cost to us. I tend to use conventional, so am extremely grateful to them for the service they provide.

I've always stuck to name brand oils, be they gas station branded, big oil branded, or a big diesel engine manufacturer branded. That certainly does help in avoiding bad oils.

For the standards you're looking for and for somewhat extended drains, I doubt you'll have any problems with Synpower or PP. QSUD and the various flavors of M1 would work well, too.


I feel better when using synthetic lubes while not costing that much more. I benefited. My car has more headroom and my choice isn't wrong automatically even if I don't use that headroom. Now, if money saved is the MIT then yes by all means buy the cheapest oil capable of the 'required' needs, but then you can save with extended drains, too. Time, frequency of downtime/servicing...hey, I'm starting to sound like an Amsoil salesman. Help me Pablo!!!

I mean, seriously? Oil is a lot cheaper for most daily drivers behind gas and car insurance. Have fun with it if you can.

 

[GMorg]

When I went through the UOA section the only conclusion that I could reach related to predicting wear was that air filtration is more important than the oil. And, if you are doing long OCI's, air filtration is even more important.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
When I went through the UOA section the only conclusion that I could reach related to predicting wear was that air filtration is more important than the oil. And, if you are doing long OCI's, air filtration is even more important.


Good points.

 

[EngineeringGeek]

Thanks. I spent quite a few hours with UOAs hoping to extract some meaningful data about specific oils and I finally gave up. I'm not a statistics expert, but there are just too many uncontrolled variables and the data was all over the place.

I have to agree with GMorg, other factors seem to make a much bigger difference than the oil used. I know a lot of people here may not believe that (or want to hear it) but it really seems to be true. For every "great" result with 5W30 Brand X there tends to be a nearly opposite result for the same oil.

In some cases, I found reports of 4+ oil changes in a row, with all the same oil and similar OCIs, with each UOA being radically different for the same vehicle than the previous one. It gets even worse trying to compare the same oil between different vehicles.

Perhaps if you could average over 100+ reports for each oil some significant differences might emerge from all the randomness but the only people in a position to do that don't seem to be interested in sharing that information. And, in terms of the same formulation, weight, brand, and type of oil, they probably don't even have that much data to average.

The above is why I ended up putting much more weight in the IOM PQIA lab tests. They're run under infinitely more controlled conditions than UOAs.

 

[JOD]

I think the UOA data can be useful, but again, it depends what you're looking to find.

If you're trying to determine "what's the best oil", you aren't going to find much useful data. That said, there's some useful information to glean: driving habits matter more than anything, followed by the engine. Oil seems to be the 3rd most important variable in the whole deal. Secondly, you can pretty much write off learning anything useful from looking at the bulk of UOA's. Moderate driving, moderate OCI's, normal engines. You you see the title: "6K miles Honda CRV Pennzoil Platinum", you just aren't going learn much. Look at the engines that are known fuel diluters, or the guys going over 10K, then look at shear stability, flash point and TBN. That will give you some useful insight into how different oils can hold up. OTOH, trying to make determinations based on wear via single or low double-digit wear metals? That's really not going to tell you anything useful, IMO.

Besides the aforementioned bit about air filtration, the other thing I've learned looking at UOAs is that fuel and moisture are tough on oil. Short trips in cold temps=change your oil a lot... Lot of highway miles on most engines=possibility for extended OCI's. It does seem that some oils, Amsoil's SSO/AZO, PZ Ultra, M1, old Edge among others all seem to hold up well over extended drains--and all of the new SN oils (dino/syn) seem to do better than the SM oils in >10K OCI's.

As far as "what oil is best in a non-challenging environment for a 5K OCI", then I agree, there's not much to be learned from the UOA section.

 

[ltslimjim]

JOD, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: EngineeringGeek
I'm not a statistics expert, but there are just too many uncontrolled variables and the data was all over the place.

I know a lot of people here may not believe that (or want to hear it) but it really seems to be true. For every "great" result with 5W30 Brand X there tends to be a nearly opposite result for the same oil.

In some cases, I found reports of 4+ oil changes in a row, with all the same oil and similar OCIs, with each UOA being radically different for the same vehicle than the previous one. It gets even worse trying to compare the same oil between different vehicles.
Yes, yes, and yes!
Hence the "other conditions" can neither be predictable nor exactly determined. Worse still, these "other conditions" are dynamic, many time even with the same driver, oil, air filter, and car... !
This is exactly why UOA is still very important - you must know what is the condition of the oil inside an engine, for any interval above the typical 5K OCI, just to know if there are any undue stresses on the engine due to oil condition. Its about having a proactive predictive maintenance approach. Not too much more than that...

Originally Posted By: JOD
You you see the title: "6K miles Honda CRV Pennzoil Platinum", you just aren't going learn much. Look at the engines that are known fuel diluters, or the guys going over 10K, then look at shear stability, flash point and TBN. That will give you some useful insight into how different oils can hold up.
Very well said JOD !
If I may only add that Sustained Good Fuel Economy should be included as another "major" driving factor, not to be discounted, in evaluating oils over both short and extended OCIs.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: EngineeringGeek
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Are you going to perform your oil changes yourself?

Yup. I've had bad experiences doing otherwise. Why do you ask?

You may look into Fumoto Valve

 

[ltslimjim]

^Having to get one for the Civic because the pan's threads have an imperfection ruining drain plugs, or I could just replace a drain plug every 3 oil changes making each oil change an additional...$2-3? So, for the convenience and hassle of that I can spend $20-$25 for the fumoto.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
I feel better when using synthetic lubes while not costing that much more. I benefited. My car has more headroom and my choice isn't wrong automatically even if I don't use that headroom. Now, if money saved is the MIT then yes by all means buy the cheapest oil capable of the 'required' needs, but then you can save with extended drains, too. Time, frequency of downtime/servicing...hey, I'm starting to sound like an Amsoil salesman. Help me Pablo!!!


That's why I consider Amsoil to be a top end oil, even though some of their offerings lack the latest and fanciest specs.

Up here, synthetic gets rather expensive, but I don't deny the appeal of synthetic. My view is, generally, look at what meets the specifications you require first, then pick and choose among brands (if you have additive pack preferences, or viscosity preferences, or whatever), or buy what's cheapest and/or most readily available.

 

[EngineeringGeek]

Originally Posted By: JOD
It does seem that some oils, Amsoil's SSO/AZO, PZ Ultra, M1, old Edge among others all seem to hold up well over extended drains--and all of the new SN oils (dino/syn) seem to do better than the SM oils in >10K OCI's.

First thanks for all the tips on what to look for and be concerned about with long OCI's. I agree UOAs can be useful for flagging problems that may not otherwise be obvious, or extending OCI's when things look great. In my experience, however, even looking at other people's long OCI UOAs are not helpful for determining differences between say Pennzoil Platinum and Brand X.

You list several oils you think do better in long OCI use above but I'm really curious how you arrived at that? Is it just your overall memory and perception of reading many UOAs? Did you do a big spreadsheet or database on your own? Is there some already summarized data somewhere I don't know about?

I think such perceptions as stated above (Brands X, Y and Z do better at whatever) are often without any real objective data to back them up. Sure you can reference a few UOAs and point to Ultra being better at 10K than say Synpower. But I can probably find a few more UOAs that show the reverse or they're essentially the same.

My point is it's REALLY DIFFICULT to draw such conclusions from such uncontrolled data with lots of widely changing conditions and variables. It requires some serious statistical analysis and averaging across at least dozens and probably hundreds of samples. And there's just not that much data for any one given oil even if someone wanted to invest all the time to do the analysis.

Instead I think you mostly end up with a sort of "seat of the pants" vague interpretation of the UOA results. And it's likely biased by personal preferences, marketing hype, anecdotal reports, brand names, cost, sponsorship, etc. Some here even judge oils by what they look like pouring out of the bottle or oil pan. That's sort of like judging a car's quarter mile time by just looking at the door handles.

 

[JOD]

I get what you're saying r.e.the uncontrolled variables. One way to control those variables is to reduce some of them (obviously). When I first found the forum, I looked through every UOA on my particular engine (3.0 V6 Duratec),and I always note the UOA's for that engine when they come up. I also looked through pretty much the entire UOA database for OCI's over 10K (there aren't as many as you'd think) and my observations about the robustness of different oils are based largely on that. Some oils definitely show more shear and more TBN loss. So, while I didn't go through the rigor of dumping them all into a spreadsheet, I trust my memory to be reasonably solid.

It would be an interesting exercise for someone new to the forum and full of energy though! I really think the key parameters are viscosity (as compared to virgin), TBN retention (which is a bit tricky, as it's non-linear), and FP (FP among the same engine family probably tells you more than FP alone, since some cars are just more prone to fuel).

The one caveat with making conclusions r.e. the robustness of oils is that there's not a huge control group, maybe 40 UOA's in the hole database; i.e. generic mineral oils used for really long drains. There are a few though, and a few of them are very ugly. Thing is, most people doing 18K on dino aren't doing UOA's.... Meanwhile, there are a fair number of UOA's on Amsoil's SSO/AZO (more than any other oil) >15 or 20K, up to around 40K (in perfect conditions, highway miles with a bypass filter and preluber). But again, there aren't a lot of competing UOA's in similar circumstances. However, there are some near 10K OCI's that show pretty good shear and TBN depletion, at least on SM-rated oils. As I said earlier though, the SN oils as a general trend seem to all be more robust. But again, this is my impression from looking at the UOA section, I haven't quantified it.

So, I do think there's info to be gained, with all of the caveats. While there are a lot of uncontrolled variables, there's also a lot of data--which help make the data more relevant.

It's funny that you mention that you aren't a stats guy--because that's pretty obvious (no offense!). It's a common misconception that statistics can "prove something to be true". They don't--they just demonstrate the likelihood of something happening. You're thinking as an engineer, and looking for "proof". When you wrap your head around that concept, and accept that you may find general trends versus absolute proof, you may find the data more useful to you.

 

[EngineeringGeek]

Thanks JOD. I think we're mostly singing the same song. And yeah, I know stats are not black and white. I'm just talking about statistically significant trends.

Often times when you apply proper analysis to a big data set what you thought was significant often isn't. Just ask the drug companies about their clinical trials. When the trial results are properly (rather than selectively or informally) analyzed some very expensive drugs often are not meaningfully superior to the placebo. I can't prove, but suspect, the same thing is going on with "armchair" UOA conclusions.