Contest: From PYB 5W-20 to the ultimate 0W-20

[Gokhan]

Ultimate 0W-20 (ultimate PCMO) contest:

My 4A-LC seems to be running great on PYB 5W-20, which is Group II+ with a huge load of moly. Moly probably helps a lot, as Group II+ base oil otherwise has more friction and causes more wear than Group III, which in turn has more friction and causes more wear than Group IV -- at least in theory. Additive package, including the detergents and wear additives, makes a big difference as well.

I will do a UOA at the end of the OCI to see how wear is actually like and if my 1980s engine is actually happy with 5W-20 inside, despite calling for 10W-30. Since the new Toyota engines have virtually the same clearances and I have very little oil consumption if any, the recommendation on the viscosity is probably thanks to what was popular and mainstream back then.

It will be time to switch to the ultimate PCMO in the next oil change: a synthetic 0W-20. I want to hear your opinions in choosing the best one. At the end of the day, it's the magic recipe of the right base oils and right additive package which makes the best oil, but unfortunately, the oil manufacturers are not required to disclose their test results and we never know which is the best:

Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0W-20 (made by ExxonMobil): Probably the cheapest ($5 per quart if I drive 25 miles to a certain dealer). Highest viscosity index. Good amount of ZDDP and moly. Downside: probably mostly or entirely Group III, not a true synthetic, meaning more oxidation, more evaporation, more friction, and more wear than a PAO (Group IV) base oil.

Mobil 1 0W-20: Probably entirely PAO and Group V -- true synthetic -- which is good. But ZDDP very low, probably only 600 ppm, despite the 800 ILSAC upper limit. Also historically high wear numbers with Mobil 1 oils. Fairly expensive unless you catch a sale.

Amsoil Signature Series 0W-20: Entirely PAO and Group V -- true synthetic. Very high TBN for extended OCI. But very expensive. Also, not a mainstream oil, which leaves a question mark in your mind.

Other 0W-20: ?

So, let's hear your opinions. I don't want to hear opinions such as there is no best oil. Do you have any UOAs on the SN formulations of these oils? I don't want to hear opinions saying UOAs are useless either.

By the way, here is a great reference on how the Group II, III, and IV base oils compare in volatility, friction, solvency, wear, etc.:

Yubase (largest Group III manufacturer) reference on Group III performance (PDF file) (more references on their Web site)

 

[Brons2]

Mobil1 SN oils have done much better than the older M1 variants, in the UOAs that have been posted here. And you can get it almost anywhere.

That being said I would go for the Toyota 0w20 if I was doing the choosing. The low price and high VI are excellent, and I don't buy into the higher wear propaganda just because it's group III.

 

[Capa]

Not sure why you think Group 3 oils are that inferior. Would love to hear your opinion on dino

Also, Mobil 0W-20 isn't that expensive if you can get the 5 quart bottles at Walmart, which run about $26 or, for example, an Autozone or AA sale, which will have the oil matched with a true long OCI Mobil filter for $33.

 

[Indydriver]

Why switch? You're talking about a 1985 Corolla for goodness sake. That little engine will run on anything as long as the seals hold together. PYB is a great oil for this engine, plus you live in a mild climate. I'd run any good Dino 5W-30.

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Moly probably helps a lot, as Group II+ base oil otherwise has more friction and causes more wear than Group III, which in turn has more friction and causes more wear than Group IV -- at least in theory. Additive package, including the detergents and wear additives, makes a big difference as well.


This mind set is a fallacy. Throw this theory away.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I will do a UOA at the end of the OCI to see how wear is actually like and if my 1980s engine is actually happy with 5W-20 inside, despite calling for 10W-30. Since the new Toyota engines have virtually the same clearances and I have very little oil consumption if any, the recommendation on the viscosity is probably thanks to what was popular and mainstream back then.

UOA's are used to determine oil condition, not engine condition, although the snap shot of typical wear metals can give "some" idea. The ability to run 20 wt oils has less to do with the engine used and everything to do (IMO) to the design of the entire package (engine management, cooling, etc). Personally, if this were my vehicle, I would not run a 20 wt in California.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan
So, let's hear your opinions. I don't want to hear opinions such as there is no best oil. Do you have any UOAs on the SN formulations of these oils? I don't want to hear opinions saying UOAs are useless either.


My opinion: it is a 1980's Toyota engine. Running anything in your climate other than a conventional, unless you're looking for extended OCI's, is an economic waste. You will not see any wear difference between any of the GrpII+, III, or IV oils. It's your money though.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Moly probably helps a lot, as Group II+ base oil otherwise has more friction and causes more wear than Group III, which in turn has more friction and causes more wear than Group IV -- at least in theory. Additive package, including the detergents and wear additives, makes a big difference as well.


This mind set is a fallacy. Throw this theory away.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I will do a UOA at the end of the OCI to see how wear is actually like and if my 1980s engine is actually happy with 5W-20 inside, despite calling for 10W-30. Since the new Toyota engines have virtually the same clearances and I have very little oil consumption if any, the recommendation on the viscosity is probably thanks to what was popular and mainstream back then.

UOA's are used to determine oil condition, not engine condition, although the snap shot of typical wear metals can give "some" idea. The ability to run 20 wt oils has less to do with the engine used and everything to do (IMO) to the design of the entire package (engine management, cooling, etc). Personally, if this were my vehicle, I would not run a 20 wt in California.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan
So, let's hear your opinions. I don't want to hear opinions such as there is no best oil. Do you have any UOAs on the SN formulations of these oils? I don't want to hear opinions saying UOAs are useless either.


My opinion: it is a 1980's Toyota engine. Running anything in your climate other than a conventional, unless you're looking for extended OCI's, is an economic waste. You will not see any wear difference between any of the GrpII+, III, or IV oils. It's your money though.


This. The FACT that UOA's can't be used for reliably determining engine wear, let alone contrasting oils to each other has been covered quite well on here, particularly by Doug Hillary who used UOA's extensively for their intended purpose over millions of Km's.

I do understand why this is such a difficult thing to embrace, but you are truly doing yourself a disservice by continuing to believe that you can use UOA's to pit various oils against each other and find the "winner".

 

[deven]

I would do a UOA on this and a second run of the same oil to gauge true wear. First run on a new oil can sometimes give elevated wear amounts. But I know you know this already.

 

[addyguy]

I'd like to see you toss Amsoil OE and XL 0W-20 into your consideration list.

I think both are not quite recognized for how good they are, and will last even longer than Amsoil recommends...

 

[DrDusty86]

RP 0w20 to the list please.

 

[CATERHAM]

I agree that there is really no way to measure a difference in engine wear, especially between premium motor oils yourself; a series of UOAs would at best be inconclusive even if you could find a statistically significant difference.

That being said I'd suggest that Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI is likely the optimum 20wt oil for typical street use since it's the lightest oil you can buy at least on start-up. It should maximize fuel economy and engine performance.

The Toyota 0W-20 with it's 216 VI and robust AW package would be a close 2nd choice. It's readily available and half the price of the Sustina product.

 

[Gokhan]

The nice thing about having a 27-year-old engine with almost 250,000 miles on it is that you don't mind experimenting with oil.

UOA will be interesting to see how the PYB 5W-20 is doing in this engine. Perhaps it will be another hint on the xW-20 vs. xW-30 debate. Besides, a Group II+ 5W-30 dino quickly shears to 5W-20 anyway.

I am inclining toward ExxonMobil's Toyota 0W-20. Sustina is probably expensive and hard to get. Amsoil and Red Line are expensive too. Not to say that they aren't superior to Toyota 0W-20 -- they might well be. Also, since I am not burning any oil, I could easily go to 12,000 miles with only 4 quarts (oil capacity a little less than 3.5 qt) and they might actually save me money at the end. I can get the Toyota 0W-20 for $5 if I drive 25 miles each way to a nearby dealer (despite the gas costing about $9 for the trip with CA's $4.50 per gallon reformulated gas right now). Perhaps I could also use this drive as a warm-up for the Blackstone UOA run.

Any opinions on 0W-20 choices and favorites are welcome. I am interested to see who favors which 0W-20 and why.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

I am inclining toward ExxonMobil's Toyota 0W-20. Sustina is probably expensive and hard to get. Amsoil and Red Line are expensive too. Not to say that they aren't superior to Toyota 0W-20 -- they might well be.

Any opinions on 0W-20 choices and favorites are welcome. I am interested to see who favors which 0W-20 and why.

Here's my top 15 0W-20 oils:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...070#Post2558070

You'll notice that Red Line, Amsoil and my personal fav' high performance 0W-20, Fuchs Titan GT-1 XTL, are not included:
The reason is they're too heavy being close to 30wt oils if not a 30wt oil outright based on their HTHSV.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Here's my top 15 0W-20 oils:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...070#Post2558070

You'll notice that Red Line, Amsoil and my personal fav' high performance 0W-20, Fuchs Titan GT-1 XTL, are not included:
The reason is they're too heavy being close to 30wt oils if not a 30wt oil outright based on their HTHSV.


I am a sucker for a "top 10 list" of anything. Thanks CATERHAM.

I know Red line and Amsoil are quite forthcoming re the HTHS # for their oils but I have yet to see any such statistic for any FUCHS oil.

Any partial PDS for any FUCHS engine oil appears elsewhere than on their official website i.e. www.fuchs-europe. And never have I seen an HTHS # anywhere.

If anyone has seen such information I would love to see the link.

There may be other evidence why one can imply that the FUCHS 0W20 behaves like a 0W30 but it isn't because we know the true HTHS stat.

 

[tig1]

Gokhan,
Most everything you said about M1 0-20 is bunk.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Here's my top 15 0W-20 oils:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...070#Post2558070

You'll notice that Red Line, Amsoil and my personal fav' high performance 0W-20, Fuchs Titan GT-1 XTL, are not included:
The reason is they're too heavy being close to 30wt oils if not a 30wt oil outright based on their HTHSV.


I am a sucker for a "top 10 list" of anything. Thanks CATERHAM.

I know Red line and Amsoil are quite forthcoming re the HTHS # for their oils but I have yet to see any such statistic for any FUCHS oil.

Any partial PDS for any FUCHS engine oil appears elsewhere than on their official website i.e. www.fuchs-europe. And never have I seen an HTHS # anywhere.

If anyone has seen such information I would love to see the link.

There may be other evidence why one can imply that the FUCHS 0W20 behaves like a 0W30 but it isn't because we know the true HTHS stat.

We do know the HTHSV of the FUCHS Titan GT-1 0W-20.
THe original formula had a HTHSV of 2.95cP (independantly tested) when the KV100 was given as 8.9cSt.
The current XTL version of the oil has a KV100 of 8.7cSt, so I would suspect the HTHSV is somewhat lower, likely in the 2.85-2.90cP range.
Since this oil contains no polymer VIIs and will not shear it would be suitable for a 30wt application.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Since this oil contains no polymer VIIs and will not shear it would be suitable for a 30wt application.


Of course I am not being scientific but you gotta think that a very high quality 20 wt like FUCHS is superior in all respects to any run of the mill, garden variety 30 wt and so would be up to the task of protecting an engine spec'd for the ubiquitous 5W30.

 

[CATERHAM]

Yes particularly considering it's a long drain, low SAPS, ester based race oil with a very advanced propriatory AW package.
This 0W-20 was the spec' oil in the Porsche Cup racing series of a few years back.