CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ?

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VWguy

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Hello all. I would like to inquire if any of the following statements made on a VW forum have any merit while using Diesel oil's in flat tappet air-cooled engines. Statement 1- "You should no longer run any Diesel oils in a gasoline engine. The Government changed the oil regulations a few years ago. The additive packages including the ant-foaming agents and detergents are not right for a gas engine. Many people are now reporting 15-20 degree hotter oil temps with these Diesel oils." Statement 2- " I've resisted using the diesel oils because I've read that the diesel oil's aggressive detergent package is potentially hazardous to a gasoline engine's ring seal." My application's include mild builds with mild cams and HD single springs, and include oil filter and additional capacity via a sump. I have "successfully" used both Delo and Rotella 15w-40 oils for over a decade with no noticeable concerns. My location is the SoCal coastal areas. For what it is worth none of the above individuals have posted any documentation to support their statements. Thanks, Bill.
 
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I don't know about VW, but it's the same for Mercedes, they spec a 229.5 oil for gas engines and either 229.51 or 229.52 for diesels. I wouldn't use a diesel oil in a gasser or vice versa.
 
Originally Posted By: VWguy
Statement 1- "You should no longer run any Diesel oils in a gasoline engine. The Government changed the oil regulations a few years ago. The additive packages including the ant-foaming agents and detergents are not right for a gas engine. Many people are now reporting 15-20 degree hotter oil temps with these Diesel oils."
If it still carries API SM/SN rating for gasoline engines, then I'd say it's OK to use in gasoline engines. But, see my point further down...
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Statement 2- " I've resisted using the diesel oils because I've read that the diesel oil's aggressive detergent package is potentially hazardous to a gasoline engine's ring seal."
"Diesel oils" is a big bucket that can span a ton of different specifications and requirements. For example, there are a lot of diesel oils out there today that are geared toward engines with modern emissions equipment such as DPF. Such oils actually have a reduced additive package in order to protect DPF. So, for gasoline engines, the only downside would be quicker add pack depletion, which means you should not be running them for a very long OCI, at least until our gasoline truly becomes ultra low sulfur. I think you guys in Cali already have ULS gasoline. The rest of the country is playing catch-up.
 
Many oils here are double rated... So you get bounch of standards on the back of the label... For helix ultra it looks like... Acea A3/B4 Bmw LL-01 MB 229.5 and then I am not sure if it is VW 502-505... Also API SN(M?)/CF And then you have helix ultra diesel with exactly the same standards...but a little pricier because it has a word "diesel" written on a front sticker smile
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
There you have them...
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Specifications: API SN/CF; ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4; BMW LL-01; MB approval 229.5, 226.5; VW 502.00/505.00; Porsche A40; Renault RN0700, RN0710; PSA B71 2296, Ferrari. Meets the requirements of Fiat 9.55535-Z2 and Chrysler MS-10725
Which one of the above is a diesel spec, other than maybe API CF which is very outdated? smile
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
ACEA A3/B4
Kind of, but ACEA C and E are the proper diesel specs, not really A/B.
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LL-01
LL-01 is for gasoline engines. LL-04 is for diesels.
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229.5
229.5 is for gasoline engines. 229.51 and 229.52 are for diesels.
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505
502.00/505.00 is for gasoline engines. 504.00/507.00 is for diesels.
 
You are mixing.... FULL SAPS diesel specs (till euro4 emission standard) B4...LL-01...505...229.5 With LOW/MID SAPS ones.(euro 5 and above) ... Cx (x ranges from 1-4)...507....229.51/52...LL-04 With Heavy Duty ones...Acea Ex (x=4,6,7,9) smile
 
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Heavy Duty means diesel only here over the pond... Semis... Haulers... V6 V8 OR MORE....turbo diesels smile
 
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Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Many oils here are double rated... So you get bounch of standards on the back of the label... For helix ultra it looks like... Acea A3/B4 Bmw LL-01 MB 229.5 and then I am not sure if it is VW 502-505... Also API SN(M?)/CF And then you have helix ultra diesel with exactly the same standards...but a little pricier because it has a word "diesel" written on a front sticker smile
I'm not sure I'm really following your point. For MB, as others said 229.5 is for gas, 229.51 or 229.52 is for diesel. You haven't shown a motor oil that's both. You can use one in the other, but it's not really recommended if you're going to stick to the long change interval that's normal on MB in the US which is 10k. I'm not sure you can have a high saps oil and a low saps oil at the same time. It's like having tea and no tea at the same time.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
There you have them...
Quote:
Specifications: API SN/CF; ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4; BMW LL-01; MB approval 229.5, 226.5; VW 502.00/505.00; Porsche A40; Renault RN0700, RN0710; PSA B71 2296, Ferrari. Meets the requirements of Fiat 9.55535-Z2 and Chrysler MS-10725
Which one of the above is a diesel spec, other than maybe API CF which is very outdated? smile
A3/B3 and A3/B4 are dual rated oils. That's the "B" in specifications. Cx specifications is also dual rated, compatible with aftertreatment devices. Ex are single rated HDDO.
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Heavy Duty means diesel only here over the pond... Semis... Haulers... V6 V8 OR MORE....turbo diesels smile
Inline 6 my friend. That configuration is used nowadays.
 
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
I'm not sure I'm really following your point. For MB, as others said 229.5 is for gas, 229.51 or 229.52 is for diesel. You haven't shown a motor oil that's both. You can use one in the other, but it's not really recommended if you're going to stick to the long change interval that's normal on MB in the US which is 10k. I'm not sure you can have a high saps oil and a low saps oil at the same time. It's like having tea and no tea at the same time.
http://www.oilspecifications.org/mercedes_mb.php Look at the definition of 229.5....first it has to meet acea A3/B3/B4 as a minimum.....plus some additional MB specs...to became 229.5... Acea has A for a gasoline and B for a diesel engines...
 
Mercedes themselves use low saps 229.51 "diesel oil" when they service petrol engines. Whether that's a good thing is another question about the efficacy of the antiwear additives and nothing to do with the OP's specific concerns. The fact that many oils will be ACEA A3/B4 answers the question for most oils of that type. I don't recall ever seeing an oil rated A3 that wasn't also either B3 or B4.
 
Originally Posted By: barryh
The fact that many oils will be ACEA A3/B4 answers the question for most oils of that type. I don't recall ever seeing an oil rated A3 that wasn't also either B3 or B4.
Just FYI, but in the US, most oils do not carry any ACEA specs.
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
I'm not sure I'm really following your point. For MB, as others said 229.5 is for gas, 229.51 or 229.52 is for diesel. You haven't shown a motor oil that's both. You can use one in the other, but it's not really recommended if you're going to stick to the long change interval that's normal on MB in the US which is 10k. I'm not sure you can have a high saps oil and a low saps oil at the same time. It's like having tea and no tea at the same time.
http://www.oilspecifications.org/mercedes_mb.php Look at the definition of 229.5....first it has to meet acea A3/B3/B4 as a minimum.....plus some additional MB specs...to became 229.5... Acea has A for a gasoline and B for a diesel engines...
I don't think I really follow you. There isn't really an oil that meets both 229.5 and 229.51 as they're both different specs. While I've seen 229.5 oils used in 229.51 applications and vice versa, neither is recommended. What I've heard is that if you use 229.51 in a gasser, you should just change the oil after 5k instead of 10k like you would with 229.5. But if you're going to do that, you mind as well stick with 229.5. Basically MB specs 10k oil changes, I don't think either will hold up for that duration if you swap the two. As for the theory about 229.51 used in gas engines by MB, there's actually another Mobil 5w40 that MB has that's just 229.5 and not 229.51. But you don't find it on retail shelves so it's easy to think that they're throwing in 229.51 oil in everything when they're not.
 
Look at 229.5 as if it is ACEA A3/B4....and on 229.51 as if it is ACEA C3... You can use ACEA C3 in a gaser with no problem...if it is intended to cope with the diesel soot...it will not find difficulties to protect a gasoline engine wich polutes its internals far less....its even beter for your TWC aftertreatment system....in fact almost all car services/retailers are using C3 (mid saps) oils for both engine types...it is simplier that way because they dont have to hold xy types of oil in their stash... And it works fine here...because we have gasoline/diesel with 0 sulfur content!!! On the other hand...put a 229.5 oil into a diesel car intended for a 229.51 and you will clogg its DPF in one OCI (you wil get/put engine into a limp mode)...and you will have to change or repair your DPF!
 
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