Comparing TDI3 test to Sequence IIIH

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Does anyone know how the TD3 piston cleanliness test (the CEC L-117, used to qualify an oil for ACEA as A3/B3, A3/B4, A5/B5) compares to the Sequence IIIH piston cleanliness test? I realize that both tests involve heating the oil up, and then comparing deposits in the pistons. But as far as passing the tests go—is passing the European test a more rigorous standard than passing the Sequence IIIG?

FWIW, here is a short video on the TD3:
 
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IIIG is the only test I'd heard of. If IIIH is an update, then I would be fine with people talking about that.
Why precisely is it IIIG and not IIIH? IIIH seems preferable to me, and I must admit I'm not particularly fond of CEC methods.
 
Thanks for the input, I looked it up and saw that it is in fact a replacement for IIIG, so I edited my OP to refer to IIIH.
Why precisely is it IIIG and not IIIH? IIIH seems preferable to me, and I must admit I'm not particularly fond of CEC methods.
 
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@paulri Here are the specifications for the IIIH test which would point out any differences between the CEC methods and the IIIH testing (I too am not overly impressed with CEC methodologies):

Sequence IIIH, IIIHA, IIIHB Test (ASTM D8111-17)​


Engine

The Sequence IIIH Test utilizes a 2014 Chrysler Penstar 3.6 Liter, water-cooled, 4 cycle, V-6 engine as the test apparatus. The Sequence IIIH test engine is an overhead valve design (OHV) and uses dual overhead camshafts operating both intake and exhaust valves. The engine uses two intake and two exhaust valve per cylinder. The test engine is overhauled prior to each test, during which critical engine dimensions are measured and rated or measured parts (pistons, rings, etc.) are replaced.

Test Operation

The Sequence IIIH Test is a fired-engine, dynamometer lubricant test for evaluating automotive engine oils for certain high-temperature performance characteristics, including oil thickening, varnish deposition, and oil consumption. Such oils include both single viscosity grade and multi-viscosity grade oils that are used in spark-ignition, gasoline-fueled engines, as well as diesel engines. The Sequence IIIH Test consists 90 hours of engine operation at moderately high speed, load, and temperature conditions. The 90-hour segment is broken down into four 20-hour test segments and one 10-hour segment. Following each 20-hour segment, the 10 hour segment, and the 10-minute operational check, oil samples are drawn from the engine. The kinematic viscosities of the 20-hour segment samples and 10 hour segment samples are compared to the viscosity of the initial sample to determine the viscosity increase of the test oil. The Sequence IIIHA Test evaluates low temperature performance and the Sequence IIIHB evaluates phosphorus retention.

Oil Specifications:

Sequence IIIH
ILSAC GF-5 Limits: PVIS = 150%, WPD = 3.7 (No Hot Stuck Rings)
ILSAC GF-6A/B Proposed Limits: PVIS = 100%, WPD = 5.0 (No Hot Stuck Rings)

Sequence IIIHA
ILSAC GF-6A/B Proposed Limits: TBD

Sequence IIIHB
ILSAC GF-6A/B Proposed Limits: TBD

Manufacturer:

Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, Chrysler 2014 Pentastar V-6 engine with a displacement of 3.6 L, a compression ratio of 10:2:1

ParametersOperating ConditionsUnits
Test Duration90Hours
Oil Level Checks20Hours
Speed3900r/min
Load250N/m
Coolant Flow170L/min
Temperatures
Oil, Block151°C
Coolant Out115°C
Intake Air35°C
Fuel at Rail30°C
Dew Point16.1°C
Pressures
Intake Air0.05kPaG
Right Exhaust4.5kPaG
Left Exhaust4.5kPaG
Fuel at Rail420kPaG
Coolant System200kPaG



 
When you two say that you aren't impressed with the CEC methods, what do you mean? Is that another way of saying that their test just isn't an accurate predictor of the behavior of oil in an engine in the real world? Or that passing that test just isn't that tough? Or????
 
When you two say that you aren't impressed with the CEC methods, what do you mean? Is that another way of saying that their test just isn't an accurate predictor of the behavior of oil in an engine in the real world? Or that passing that test just isn't that tough? Or????
Yes, in my opinion, the CEC method does not correlate well with actual performance. Oils that pass this test may not perform satisfactorily in real-world conditions. However, it is important to note that this is purely my personal viewpoint, and it is difficult to provide concrete evidence to support it.
Furthermore, I find some of the tests conducted by CEC to be somewhat peculiar and disconnected from reality. For example, their widely utilized invention of a KO diesel jet for polymer shear stability testing seems to be popular (ASTM too) primarily because there is no better and cost-effective alternative available.
As for the CEC motor tests, I do have some concerns, but I am not currently prepared to present a comprehensive report on this matter. My reservations are not solely based on the unusual inventions of the CEC, although that does play a role. It is also due to the existence of tests like TEOST MHT, which, despite being specific, align better with real-world high mileage endurance. Interestingly, some oils perform well in the CEC test but do not pass the TEOST MHT test.
 
I often read that Euro oils are better, or to use that BITOG favorite phrase, "more robust." Is this simply not true, or is it true, but just not in terms of the piston cleanliness tests?

Would an oil that barely passes the A3/B3, A3/B4, or A5/B5 tests, be any better than one that barely passes the tests for the SN/SN+ ratings?

Yes, in my opinion, the CEC method does not correlate well with actual performance. Oils that pass this test may not perform satisfactorily in real-world conditions. However, it is important to note that this is purely my personal viewpoint, and it is difficult to provide concrete evidence to support it.
Furthermore, I find some of the tests conducted by CEC to be somewhat peculiar and disconnected from reality. For example, their widely utilized invention of a KO diesel jet for polymer shear stability testing seems to be popular (ASTM too) primarily because there is no better and cost-effective alternative available.
As for the CEC motor tests, I do have some concerns, but I am not currently prepared to present a comprehensive report on this matter. My reservations are not solely based on the unusual inventions of the CEC, although that does play a role. It is also due to the existence of tests like TEOST MHT, which, despite being specific, align better with real-world high mileage endurance. Interestingly, some oils perform well in the CEC test but do not pass the TEOST MHT test.
 
I often read that Euro oils are better, or to use that BITOG favorite phrase, "more robust." Is this simply not true, or is it true, but just not in terms of the piston cleanliness tests?

The manufacturers of even the finest European formulations primarily consist of US companies (US & UK), including the renowned big four (Infineum, Lubrizol, etc.), and the corresponding American corporations behind them.
The American specifications, namely API and ILSAC, enjoy significant support from the US oil industry and petrochemical businesses. API, functioning as an industry lobbying organization, is structured in a manner similar to a small lobbying company, yet it serves as the creator of the best requirements-forming system. This is made possible by the strong industry presence behind API, including connections with national laboratories (ORNL, NREL, and others), dedicated topic-specific laboratories (SwRI), and, of course, all the companies involved. SAE and even JSAE contribute to these efforts. The involvement of Japanese companies is particularly noteworthy, as they were early adopters of soluble MoDTC since the mid-1980s, while British companies have been using soluble tungsten since the late 1960s and now explore the utilization of titanium. This cooperative relationship between British and American companies in the industry is quite strong. The API and ILSAC requirements exhibit a verified scientific level of quality and scientific nature. Every aspect is carefully measured to strike a satisfactory balance since the formulation of oil necessitates compromises.

The European Union, in general, although boasting a strong automotive industry in Germany and to a slightly lesser extent, France, lacks sufficient expertise in the field of petrochemistry. Even the largest European company, Total, relies entirely on compositions derived from American and Asian experience when formulating oils. Not to mention the development of the additive packages themselves, where the EU has limited experience. Complicating matters further is the fact that the EU is not a single country, although control in professional matters in this domain is delegated to more experienced nations, such as Germany. Hence, organizations like ATIEL or ATC serve as superficially bodies only (ACEA). The EU does not possess the same laboratory and scientific infrastructure as the United States, and I dare say that their PCMO requirements are often lacking justification. However, it is worth noting that their requirements are, of course, coordinated with key Global additive manufacturers. For instance, Infineum is willing to assist and fulfill the EU's requirements, although the effectiveness of ACEA approach is subject to scrutiny.
It is widely believed that everything European of high quality embodies excellent taste and style, characterized by stringent requirements. However, in the case of oils, it appears to be different. The United States holds the best scientific foundation in subjects such as rheology and petrochemistry. I find European PCMO requirements often tend to be excessive, considering that oil formulation is inherently a process of making compromises, not exorbitances.
 
Interesting. I just scrolled down below this thread to the "Similar Threads" section, and the first thread listed has in the OP, by Gokhan:

The reason why the legacy ACEA categories (A3/B4, A5/B5, C2, C3, C4, and C5) provide less valvetrain-wear protection than API SP/RC does and provide no timing-chain wear protection is because half (50%) of the existing legacy ACEA oils failed to pass the valvetrain wear test at the API-SP/RC limits and another, different half (50%) failed to pass the timing-chain wear test at the API-SP/RC limits, and ACEA compromised to agree with the Euro OEMs to lower the bar for valvetrain wear and omit timing-chain wear protection altogether, even though the latter test is crucial in TGDI engines. Note that virtually all legacy ACEA oils include some Euro-OEM approval, and these Euro-OEM approvals did not help these legacy oils to pass the valvetrain and timing-chain wear tests. However, if a legacy ACEA oil also carries an API-SP approval, it will ensure that it will provide the highest valvetrain wear, timing-chain wear, and LSPI protection.

Evidently these "legacy ACEA oils" aren't always as robust as their American cousins.

This is rather surprising to me, given that when I first joined here, folks were talking about how GM had to develop the Dexos specs because the API specs were just too low. Also surprising, given that European OEM OCIs are longer than Americans are, aren't they? Which suggests that the oil that is used would be more robust? At least that it should be?

Well, learn something new every day.

The manufacturers of even the finest European formulations primarily consist of US companies (US & UK), including the renowned big four (Infineum, Lubrizol, etc.), and the corresponding American corporations behind them.
The American specifications, namely API and ILSAC, enjoy significant support from the US oil industry and petrochemical businesses. API, functioning as an industry lobbying organization, is structured in a manner similar to a small lobbying company, yet it serves as the creator of the best requirements-forming system. This is made possible by the strong industry presence behind API, including connections with national laboratories (ORNL, NREL, and others), dedicated topic-specific laboratories (SwRI), and, of course, all the companies involved. SAE and even JSAE contribute to these efforts. The involvement of Japanese companies is particularly noteworthy, as they were early adopters of soluble MoDTC since the mid-1980s, while British companies have been using soluble tungsten since the late 1960s and now explore the utilization of titanium. This cooperative relationship between British and American companies in the industry is quite strong. The API and ILSAC requirements exhibit a verified scientific level of quality and scientific nature. Every aspect is carefully measured to strike a satisfactory balance since the formulation of oil necessitates compromises.

The European Union, in general, although boasting a strong automotive industry in Germany and to a slightly lesser extent, France, lacks sufficient expertise in the field of petrochemistry. Even the largest European company, Total, relies entirely on compositions derived from American and Asian experience when formulating oils. Not to mention the development of the additive packages themselves, where the EU has limited experience. Complicating matters further is the fact that the EU is not a single country, although control in professional matters in this domain is delegated to more experienced nations, such as Germany. Hence, organizations like ATIEL or ATC serve as superficially bodies only (ACEA). The EU does not possess the same laboratory and scientific infrastructure as the United States, and I dare say that their PCMO requirements are often lacking justification. However, it is worth noting that their requirements are, of course, coordinated with key Global additive manufacturers. For instance, Infineum is willing to assist and fulfill the EU's requirements, although the effectiveness of ACEA approach is subject to scrutiny.
It is widely believed that everything European of high quality embodies excellent taste and style, characterized by stringent requirements. However, in the case of oils, it appears to be different. The United States holds the best scientific foundation in subjects such as rheology and petrochemistry. I find European PCMO requirements often tend to be excessive, considering that oil formulation is inherently a process of making compromises, not exorbitances.
 
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When you two say that you aren't impressed with the CEC methods, what do you mean? Is that another way of saying that their test just isn't an accurate predictor of the behavior of oil in an engine in the real world? Or that passing that test just isn't that tough? Or????
See post #7 as I happen to agree with Arthur's thoughts on this matter.
 
thoughts on this matter 🤣
btw, I actually think the TEOST MHT to real world correlation is pretty spot on, even though the test itself is a bit weird with its use of a containing Fe-Sn-Pb compounds as an oil-soluble catalyst. I mean, it's not perfect, but it had a nice long mileage correlation. It's fun to note that many ACEA oils struggled to pass this test. If you want more details on this subject, you should check out my topic here -


- please rely on Google Translator to give you a helping hand ;)
 
btw, I actually think the TEOST MHT to real world correlation is pretty spot on, even though the test itself is a bit weird with its use of a containing Fe-Sn-Pb compounds as an oil-soluble catalyst. I mean, it's not perfect, but it had a nice long mileage correlation. It's fun to note that many ACEA oils struggled to pass this test. If you want more details on this subject, you should check out my topic here -


- please rely on Google Translator to give you a helping hand ;)
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