Cold Start Thickness - Dr. Haas

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Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
You put alot more air than fuel through the combustion proccess.


Let me guess, about 14.7 times more air than fuel on average lol.

It's still amazing that there's that much water produced per gallon. It makes sense, those cars that you see with water pouring out of the tailpipe during the warmup process. Even though it may be in cold start enrichment, there's no where near enough fuel to make that volume of water.
 
If I remember, 1cc of gasoline puts out about 2.5 liters of gas when completely burned (at STP). The actual volume is more if you consider that the initial air mixture is about 80 percent nitrogen. And CO2 and H2O are produced in nearly equal number of moles.

Never-the-less, humidity is a significant engine wear factor and as such given a range of limitations for engine testing.

aehaas
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, my friendly tutor has shown me that 1.42 gallons of water is produced in the combustion of a gallon of gas.


Seriously? I guess some of this is coming from the air, where else could it come from?


Apparently with none of it coming from the air. Any water content in the air itself would mean that you consume more air.

We had a thread awhile back ..anyway humid air is less dense. I'm surprised I didn't remember it. If you had 0% humidity, it's at the highest density at that altitude that it can be. That's an easy google there. That part is totally counter intuitive. You would expect near saturated air (on the brink of condensation) to be heavier.

That means that any water content will require more CFM for the combustion process.

There's a unique beauty to water. Amazing stuff. I was half joking with JAG (my charitable tutor
grin2.gif
) back channel about how someone is going to point out some parallel to sensible heat and latent heat ..but in regard to the sensible water production in combustion and how water that's added to the combustion process (in the air) is fractured into O2 and H ..is burned.. and produces a sliver of the original water in the process.

..but we know that it takes up space..sorta like EGR.

..but that's a drift of of the OT part of an OTT.

We're on chemical wear due to acid formation.
LOL.gif
 
Actually, the oxygen in the water produced during combustion does come from the air. Since water has 8x as much oxygen by weight as hydrogen the majority of the water produced during combustion does come from the air.
 
So should I put a de-humidifier on my intake? :-)

All this talk about water brings "stem cleaning" to mind. Does the water actually help keep the cumbustion chamber clean?
 
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You have to consider the catalytic converter as well - catalysts convert carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide and the by-product is water.

While there is much water in an exhaust coming from the air/fuel combustion process, most of it is coming from the catalytic converter process to create carbon dioxide.
 
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So its heat & time: it takes 20 minutes to distribute the heat generated by internal combustion and friction evenly through the engine and get every part to operating temperature.

Maybe there is no way around it, no matter what you do.
(and I'm stuck with a case of SSO... for what???? haha!)

Would one see less start-up wear during the summer months?
An ambient temperture start during the summer months will be closer to the operating temperature and may reduce cold start wear to 18 minutes?

Global Warming is good for your engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Taylor
So should I put a de-humidifier on my intake? :-)

All this talk about water brings "stem cleaning" to mind. Does the water actually help keep the cumbustion chamber clean?
I imagine it would effectively increase the compression as water vapor is likely to be less compressible than air (a mixture of N2/O2/CO2). Squirting a water vapor mist in the intake is an old fashioned way to remove carbon deposits.
 
Assume the gasoline to be 100% N-Octane and 100% combustion efficiency.

C8H18 + 12.5O2 ---> 9H2O + 8CO2

Nine molecules of water formed for every one molecule of gasoline burned.

Ed
 
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
If I remember, 1cc of gasoline puts out about 2.5 liters of gas when completely burned (at STP). The actual volume is more if you consider that the initial air mixture is about 80 percent nitrogen. And CO2 and H2O are produced in nearly equal number of moles.

Never-the-less, humidity is a significant engine wear factor and as such given a range of limitations for engine testing.

aehaas


Would it be safe to say that we can expect cars on the Gulf Coast to have more cylinder wear than say Nevada? Would this difference be measurable or is it more theory?
 
Here is one reference:
Development of the Sequence IV A Valve Train Wear Lubrication Test:Part 1, Sagawa et al:
Viscosity data reveals that the more viscous oil did not significantly alter the cam angle of minimum oil film thickness. Of greater importance is the finding that the higher viscosity oil continued to exhibit boundary layer lubrication. (Ergo thicker is not necessarily better).
The effect of engine intake air humidity was significant so that tests are now done with specified humidity conditions.
It was postulated that fuel dilution of oil would elevate cam wear. Fuel dilution of 4.5 percent did not effect wear. (This would have the effect of lowering the viscosity about 1 grade).
 
Dr. Haas I have a question if you don't mind.

You had a chart in your Motor Oil chapter 102.

Here is a clip:

I have heard several people say that Porsche specifically prohibits a 0W-XX engine oil, that it is too thin. Now here is the partial truth I spoke of earlier. We will discuss multigrade oils. Earlier we said that a straight 30 weight oil has a thickness of 10 at the normal operating temperature of your engine. The multigrade oils 0w30 and 10w30 also have a thickness of 10 at 212 F.

The difference is at 75 F, your startup temperature in the morning.


Oil type... Thickness at 75 F...Thickness at 212 F

Straight 30...... 250......................10
10W-30............100......................10
0W-30..............40 ......................10

Straight 10........30....................... 6

Now you can see that the difference between the desired thickness your engine requires ( = 10 ) is closest to the 0w30 oil at startup. It is still too thick for normal operation. But it does not have far to go before it warms up and thins to the correct viscosity. Remember that most engine wear occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. It cannot flow and therefore cannot lubricate. Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways. This is especially true when you really step on that gas pedal. You really need more lubrication and you actually get less.
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In temps of 75*F and colder, according to your chart a 0W30 would be closest to the desired #10, so therefore it would offer the best level of protection since it is starting closer to the perfect 10? With that in mind the colder the sooner that 0W30 will get to 10, vs a 5W30 or a 10W30?

Am I understanding what you're saying?

Many thanks!
AD
 
The point of that section was to use simple numbers to describe what oil bottle labels mean. One often hears people say "that 0w30 is just too thin at start up, it will ruin my engine. I will use a 10w30". The labeling is difficult to understand fully.

The SAE and API changed the meaning of the label some years ago. What is now labeled as 10w30 is actually what was 5w30 in the past. People resisted the use of the 5w30 thinking it was bad for their engines so the industry just labeled it 10w30. Then people used it.

The industry keeps lowering the thickness of oil for the start up period. I do not believe it is to shorten the time it takes to heat the oil to normal operating temperatures.

I do believe it is to increase oil flow during the start up period:

Chapter 10, The graduate.


I am going to bring up the constant flow pump concept. First, it goes back to the principal that doubling the pressure of the same weight oil does not exactly double the flow but it is close. Also doubling the RPM for the same reason does not exactly double the flow but again it is close.

This shows the problem best:

(A) For a 30 wt oil at operating temperature:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......20 PSI....1
2,000......40 PSI....2
4,000......80 PSI....4
8,000... 160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5

(B) For a 30 wt oil at operating temperature
and a higher output oil pump:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......30 PSI....1.5
2,000......60 PSI....3
4,000....120 PSI....6 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
8,000... 240 PSI....12

If we stick with the same weight oil and increase the oil pump output we will increase the pressure and the oil flow too. If we double the oil pump output we will double the pressure and we will double the oil flow.

(C) For a 40 wt oil at operating temperature:
The oil is thicker, has more internal resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow. Compare this with (A):
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......30 PSI....1
2,000......60 PSI....2
4,000....120 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
8,000....240 PSI....8

(D) For a 40 wt oil at operating temperature
and a higher output oil pump:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......45 PSI....1.5
2,000......90 PSI....3 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
4,000....180 PSI....6
8,000... 360 PSI....12

The situations (A) and (C) are close to real life, assuming no loss in the system. This is what happens when you change the 30 weight oil to a 40 weight oil in your car:

(A) For a 30 wt oil at operating temperature:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......20 PSI....1
2,000......40 PSI....2
4,000......80 PSI....4
8,000... 160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5

(C) For a 40 wt oil at operating temperature:
The oil is thicker, has more internal resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow.
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......30 PSI....1
2,000......60 PSI....2
4,000....120 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
8,000....240 PSI....8

At 6,000 RPM the maximum rate of flow has been reached with the thinner oil (A). When you go to 7, 8 or 9,000 RPM you do not get any more flow. You only get a maximum rate of 5. The internal forces on the bearings increase but there is no additional flow of oil.

With the thicker oil you reach maximum flow at 3,000 RPM (C). Worse yet is that the maximum flow is now only 3. As we increase RPM to 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,000 RPM we get no additional pressure and no additional flow, no increase in lubrication.

Next let us look at a 20 weight oil at operating temperature. We get the same flow out of our constant volume pump but the thinner oil requires less pressure to move through the system. This even goes along with the rule that we should use an oil that gives us 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM:

(D) RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......10 PSI....1
2,000......20 PSI....2
4,000......40 PSI....4
8,000.. ...80 PSI....8

The maximum flow rate has not been reached. If the engine went to 9,000 RPM then the flow would be 9 at 90 PSI, our maximum pressure at pop off. The engine now has 3 times the flow rate as with the 40 weight oil at full RPM. The nozzles at the bottom of each cylinder are spraying 3 times the amount of oil lubricating and cooling this section. Everything runs cooler and the separation forces in the bearings are 3 times higher.

For engines that redline at 5,000 RPM they usually pop off the oil pressure at 50 to 60 PSI. For engines that go to 8-9,000 RPM the pressures max out at 90-100 PSI. You can now see that you can only get the maximum flow rate if you follow the 10 PSI / 1,000 RPM rule.

The winner: 0W-20 weight oil for my Maranello. I said earlier that I could use a 10 weight oil. I actually only run with 185 F oil temperature around town and the pressures are similar to the 40 weight oil example in (C) above. This is why I also said that in the racetrack condition, with hotter, thinner (0W-20) oil I may actually get the optimal results as in (D) above.

Now let us go back to the Ferrari recommended parameters in my 575 Maranello manual. It calls for 75 PSI at 6,000 RPM. The pop off pressure has not been reached. As we now increase the RPM we still get an increase in flow rate. This is what we need and this is exactly what they are recommending. We get our maximum flow at the maximum system pressure, at about the maximum engine RPM of 7,700. There is no bypassing of the oil. All oil pumped goes through the system. There is no wasted BHP pumping oil past the bypass valve back to the oil tank. It is the perfect system.

Finally I will compare a single, 30 weight oil, at normal (212 F) and at racetrack (302 F) temperatures:

(A) For a 30 wt oil at normal (212 F) operating temperature:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......20 PSI....1
2,000......40 PSI....2
4,000......80 PSI....4
8,000... 160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5

(E) For a 30 wt oil at elevated (302 F) operating temperature. The oil is thinner at 302 F. It requires less pressure to get the same flow:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......10 PSI....1
2,000......20 PSI....2
4,000......40 PSI....4
8,000......80 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 9

The hotter (302 F) 30 weight oil is thinner than the cooler (212 F) 30 weight oil. It has the same flow rate in the constant volume oil pump but at a lower pressure than the oil at normal operating temperature. This allows for a doubling of the flow rate at peak RPM. The thinning of oil at higher temperatures is a benefit. You get more flow, more cooling and more lubrication.

The 30 weight oil at 302 F has the exact same flow rate and pressures as the 20 weight oil at 212 F. See (D) above. Therefore, use the 20 weight for around town driving and the 30 weight on the hot track. You get maximum flow at each situation.

For YOUR engine, substitute the actual flow at 1,000 RPM. If your engine puts out 1.5 liters/min. at 1,000 RPM it would put out 3 liters/min. at 2,000 RPM and 6 liters/min. at 4,000 RPM and so on. The maximum flow in (A) would be 7.5 liters/min. In situations (D) and (E) you would get a maximum of 13.5 liters/min.


Conclusions:
The reason that multigrade oils were developed in the first place was to address the problem of oil thickening after engine shutdown. Over the years we have been able to reduce the amount of thickening that occurs. Never-the-less there is no oil that does not thicken after you turn your engine off. This is why we have to warm up our engines before revving them up. Engine designers always pick the recommended oil based on a hot engine and hot oil. There is no issue with oil thinning as they are both matched when hot. The problem is oil thickening when the engine cools.

Cold engine showing very high pressures because of the thickened oil at startup:

For a 40 wt oil at 75 F at startup:
The oil is thicker, has more internal resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow.
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......60 PSI....1
2,000....120 PSI....2 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 1.5
4,000....240 PSI....4
8,000....480 PSI....8

At 1,500 RPM you reach the maximum oil flow rate and if you run to 8,000 RPM it is the same rate. The flow cannot increase and it is insufficient. This is why we must wait until our oil temperature comes up to 212 F or higher. The maximum flow rate in this case will then double, up to 3. To get even more flow in our test engine you need to use a lower viscosity grade.

Current time - people have a tendency to overlook the importance of that oil pressure relief valve and the amount of oil flow. Cars used for short trips sometimes run in an over pressured state the whole trip. There is a tendency to think that high pressure means you have high flow of oil. This is not a good way of thinking in my book.

aehaas
 
Thanks for the reply! So the 0W oils don't get to operating temps any faster. Are they protecting any better during the time it takes to get to operating temps due to increased flow?

AD
 
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Dr. Haas I have a question if you don't mind.

You had a chart in your Motor Oil chapter 102.

Here is a clip:

I have heard several people say that Porsche specifically prohibits a 0W-XX engine oil, that it is too thin. Now here is the partial truth I spoke of earlier. We will discuss multigrade oils. Earlier we said that a straight 30 weight oil has a thickness of 10 at the normal operating temperature of your engine. The multigrade oils 0w30 and 10w30 also have a thickness of 10 at 212 F.

The difference is at 75 F, your startup temperature in the morning.


Oil type... Thickness at 75 F...Thickness at 212 F

Straight 30...... 250......................10
10W-30............100......................10
0W-30..............40 ......................10

Straight 10........30....................... 6

Now you can see that the difference between the desired thickness your engine requires ( = 10 ) is closest to the 0w30 oil at startup. It is still too thick for normal operation. But it does not have far to go before it warms up and thins to the correct viscosity. Remember that most engine wear occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. It cannot flow and therefore cannot lubricate. Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways. This is especially true when you really step on that gas pedal. You really need more lubrication and you actually get less.
--------------------------------------------------------------

In temps of 75*F and colder, according to your chart a 0W30 would be closest to the desired #10, so therefore it would offer the best level of protection since it is starting closer to the perfect 10? With that in mind the colder the sooner that 0W30 will get to 10, vs a 5W30 or a 10W30?

Am I understanding what you're saying?

Many thanks!
AD


I'm assuming those numbers are for conventional oils?

My straight 30 synthetic has a 66.3cst at 75, better than the 10w30. Those look like worst case scenarios.
 
Is cavitation during start up an issue? High viscosity should prevent oil from re-entering the suction region downstream of the load carrying part of the oil film, in a bearing.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Is cavitation during start up an issue? High viscosity should prevent oil from re-entering the suction region downstream of the load carrying part of the oil film, in a bearing.


You would have to be using an oil that was way out of the specified viscosity vs temperature range. As long as you're in this range there's little to no difference between say a 0w-20 and a 20-50.

I hate always using my GN as an example but I have never had signs of oil starvation in the bearings even though I set up my rods at factory clearances (mains are on the loose end of factory). I use 20w-50 in it year round and it's even seen Valvoline straight 60 and again these are stock clearances. I believe factory called for a 10w30 to a 15w40 but it's been a long time since I looked at the factory recommended oil.

What I'm trying to say is there's little gray area. You either have full lube to the bearings or no lube.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Is cavitation during start up an issue? High viscosity should prevent oil from re-entering the suction region downstream of the load carrying part of the oil film, in a bearing.


Many high revving sports cars sustain engine damage by the user turning the engine on then fully revving it for sound effects. I believe this is a result of cavitation at multiple sites.

aehaas
 
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