Chinese to buy GM and Chrysler
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There is no way the Chinese will get a hold of Chrysler or GM; the US govt would never allow it to happen.
GM (and Ford as well) have to survive in some form or another. There are so many city, state, county, federal, law enforcement, military, taxi, limo, delivery, contractors and other businesses that depend on their vehicles it isn't funny. The country would grind to a halt if many types of Big 3 vehicles (as well as parts and service) were not available, in my opinion.
For example, can you imagine a foreign car mfg building cars, trucks and other vehicles for the US Secret Service? It's totally ridiculous.
GM (and Ford as well) have to survive in some form or another. There are so many city, state, county, federal, law enforcement, military, taxi, limo, delivery, contractors and other businesses that depend on their vehicles it isn't funny. The country would grind to a halt if many types of Big 3 vehicles (as well as parts and service) were not available, in my opinion.
For example, can you imagine a foreign car mfg building cars, trucks and other vehicles for the US Secret Service? It's totally ridiculous.
Originally Posted By: MrCritical
I have a few points I'd like you to consider.
If GM goes into bankruptcy, there's no promise that they will come out of it, even Chapter 11. Besides the millions of people who work for GM or at a dealership, there are over 1300 companies that supply the automobile industry in America. Many of them will go down with GM. Many of them also supply Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subaru/Mercedes/BMW, and Hyundai in the U.S.
This country very well may not survive that many people out of work and bankrupt at one time, on top of the financial disasters we already have. If the logic of any of this sounds weak to you, do your own math.
This post sums up my thoughts on this topic perfectly. Very well said.
I have a few points I'd like you to consider.
If GM goes into bankruptcy, there's no promise that they will come out of it, even Chapter 11. Besides the millions of people who work for GM or at a dealership, there are over 1300 companies that supply the automobile industry in America. Many of them will go down with GM. Many of them also supply Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subaru/Mercedes/BMW, and Hyundai in the U.S.
This country very well may not survive that many people out of work and bankrupt at one time, on top of the financial disasters we already have. If the logic of any of this sounds weak to you, do your own math.
This post sums up my thoughts on this topic perfectly. Very well said.
Originally Posted By: BGK
There is no way the Chinese will get a hold of Chrysler or GM; the US govt would never allow it to happen.
For example, can you imagine a foreign car mfg building cars, trucks and other vehicles for the US Secret Service? It's totally ridiculous.
you are misinformed. the Chinese have a foothold in this country because of US govt policies. they sub out control of stuff to foreign interests all the time.
I read an article not too long ago talking about the new head of the US Army. he liked the green berets the Rangers/special forces guys wear (sorry to offend any Army guys, I forget the exact details) that he thought ALL Army members should wear them. to differentitate from the special guys, they got a different color. where from? made in China.
the Chinese are the largest US trading partner. the Chinese loan millions to the US govt EVERY DAY to support its wars. 90% of consumer goods in the US are produced in China. China owns stock in major US companies, including over 50% of Home Depot.
do you REALLY think the US wouldn't allow their favorite [censored] partner to buy the big3?
Edit: Misspelled profanity still counts as profanity.
There is no way the Chinese will get a hold of Chrysler or GM; the US govt would never allow it to happen.
For example, can you imagine a foreign car mfg building cars, trucks and other vehicles for the US Secret Service? It's totally ridiculous.
you are misinformed. the Chinese have a foothold in this country because of US govt policies. they sub out control of stuff to foreign interests all the time.
I read an article not too long ago talking about the new head of the US Army. he liked the green berets the Rangers/special forces guys wear (sorry to offend any Army guys, I forget the exact details) that he thought ALL Army members should wear them. to differentitate from the special guys, they got a different color. where from? made in China.
the Chinese are the largest US trading partner. the Chinese loan millions to the US govt EVERY DAY to support its wars. 90% of consumer goods in the US are produced in China. China owns stock in major US companies, including over 50% of Home Depot.
do you REALLY think the US wouldn't allow their favorite [censored] partner to buy the big3?
Edit: Misspelled profanity still counts as profanity.
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: BGK
GM (and Ford as well) have to survive in some form or another. There are so many city, state, county, federal, law enforcement, military, taxi, limo, delivery, contractors and other businesses that depend on their vehicles it isn't funny. The country would grind to a halt if many types of Big 3 vehicles (as well as parts and service) were not available, in my opinion.
I hadn't thought of that, obviously no other country is able to accomplish those tasks without US made vehicles either.
GM (and Ford as well) have to survive in some form or another. There are so many city, state, county, federal, law enforcement, military, taxi, limo, delivery, contractors and other businesses that depend on their vehicles it isn't funny. The country would grind to a halt if many types of Big 3 vehicles (as well as parts and service) were not available, in my opinion.
I hadn't thought of that, obviously no other country is able to accomplish those tasks without US made vehicles either.
I still think there is 1 fundamental thing about bailing out Detroit: it's not going to change what America is buying, at least in the short term. If they go bankrupt and restructure on their own, or even go bankrupt and dissolve, other companies like Toyota will buy their assets and build more cars here - cars that people are actually buying and are profitable. [censored]'s gonna hit the fan regardless of whether we throw 40 billion to Detroit, and there's going to be massive unemployment from Detroit's failings, but it's going to take private investment and management to turn those companies around or for other companies who haven't had their heads up their asses for 2 decades to do it. Bailing them out in anyway will only delay the inevitable.
And unemployment from the collapse of the big 3 will be offset by new employment from whatever rises from the ashes of Detroit.
And unemployment from the collapse of the big 3 will be offset by new employment from whatever rises from the ashes of Detroit.
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Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Tempest
A little old, but plenty of monitary statistics:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/26/news/companies/pluggedin_taylor_ford.fortune/index.htm
Quote:
According to the latest calculations, the gap between Japanese and American carmakers' profits average out to about $2900 per vehicle, and the home team does not have the advantage.
Interesting article, if you read the article and apply some elementary school math, a bit over 1/2 of that difference is labor and a bit under 1/2 is that people aren't willing to pay as much for equivalent American cars.
When the big 3 owned the US market, they were perfectly willing to give the unions whatever they wanted because all 3 were in the same boat and could pass it on to their customers who didn't have much choice about what they bought. The same for chrap quality. As long as Ford, GM and Chrysler were the only real game in town, they could foist all sorts of 2nd rate quality off on their customers and they did.
I get no joy from seeing the US car makers going down the tubes, but their management earned it for them.
The US car companies need to be disassembled to the point that they can be restructured with new management and new work rules. New work rules and getting labor under control can be done with restructuring. Unfortunately, I doubt that the people running the show have what it takes to put competent management in place.
Nicely put, as much as I don't like the UAW, I would hate to see China take GM and Chrysler over. I would hope that Uncle Sam steps up to the plate and stops it, free enterprise or not!!!!!!! If they don't I hope we use the factories to build up the Military, we’re going to need it.
IMO it will be the UAW that destroys what's left of the auto industry, because I don't think they'll make any concessions that are worthwhile. If Ford survives it will be a short period of time before the UAW destroys them too! We are in a financial crisis that most of us have never seen in our lifetimes, and this is just the beginning. Greed started it rolling, and no one has a clue how to stop it.
JMO,
Frank D
Originally Posted By: Tempest
A little old, but plenty of monitary statistics:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/26/news/companies/pluggedin_taylor_ford.fortune/index.htm
Quote:
According to the latest calculations, the gap between Japanese and American carmakers' profits average out to about $2900 per vehicle, and the home team does not have the advantage.
Interesting article, if you read the article and apply some elementary school math, a bit over 1/2 of that difference is labor and a bit under 1/2 is that people aren't willing to pay as much for equivalent American cars.
When the big 3 owned the US market, they were perfectly willing to give the unions whatever they wanted because all 3 were in the same boat and could pass it on to their customers who didn't have much choice about what they bought. The same for chrap quality. As long as Ford, GM and Chrysler were the only real game in town, they could foist all sorts of 2nd rate quality off on their customers and they did.
I get no joy from seeing the US car makers going down the tubes, but their management earned it for them.
The US car companies need to be disassembled to the point that they can be restructured with new management and new work rules. New work rules and getting labor under control can be done with restructuring. Unfortunately, I doubt that the people running the show have what it takes to put competent management in place.
Nicely put, as much as I don't like the UAW, I would hate to see China take GM and Chrysler over. I would hope that Uncle Sam steps up to the plate and stops it, free enterprise or not!!!!!!! If they don't I hope we use the factories to build up the Military, we’re going to need it.
IMO it will be the UAW that destroys what's left of the auto industry, because I don't think they'll make any concessions that are worthwhile. If Ford survives it will be a short period of time before the UAW destroys them too! We are in a financial crisis that most of us have never seen in our lifetimes, and this is just the beginning. Greed started it rolling, and no one has a clue how to stop it.
JMO,
Frank D
I don't know labor laws in relation to Detroit, but if the UAW pouts and strikes, can't the car companies give them the finger and hire other people? That happens a lot with grocery unions around here.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Even the Americans don't believe in their own products. Why else would Saturn models be made in Korea, Ford using Mazda Engines and Chrysler using Mitsubishi.
you are so clueless it's amazing.
NO saturns are made in Korea. current saturns are either American, or Belgium. it's the Chevy Aveo that is Korean.
Mazdas use Ford engines AND ford uses Mazda engines. the engine in the last gen MPV was the ford duratec 2.5 and then the 3.0. the CX-9 engine is from ford. Ford has owned a controlling interest in Mazda for some time, so they are the same friggin company.
Even the Americans don't believe in their own products. Why else would Saturn models be made in Korea, Ford using Mazda Engines and Chrysler using Mitsubishi.
you are so clueless it's amazing.
NO saturns are made in Korea. current saturns are either American, or Belgium. it's the Chevy Aveo that is Korean.
Mazdas use Ford engines AND ford uses Mazda engines. the engine in the last gen MPV was the ford duratec 2.5 and then the 3.0. the CX-9 engine is from ford. Ford has owned a controlling interest in Mazda for some time, so they are the same friggin company.
Originally Posted By: mpvue
do you REALLY think the US wouldn't allow their favorite fcuk partner to buy the big3?
They wouldn't let the Chinese buy our ports!
"edit" oops, that was Dubai.
do you REALLY think the US wouldn't allow their favorite fcuk partner to buy the big3?
They wouldn't let the Chinese buy our ports!
"edit" oops, that was Dubai.
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
I don't know labor laws in relation to Detroit, but if the UAW pouts and strikes, can't the car companies give them the finger and hire other people? That happens a lot with grocery unions around here.
I don't think its that easy. If it was, and they didn't do it years ago then shame on them. The way Regan flipped the striking Air Traffic Controllers the bird, is what should have been done to the UAW years ago by The Big 3. They couldn't do it, the UAW was too strong.
Frank D
I don't know labor laws in relation to Detroit, but if the UAW pouts and strikes, can't the car companies give them the finger and hire other people? That happens a lot with grocery unions around here.
I don't think its that easy. If it was, and they didn't do it years ago then shame on them. The way Regan flipped the striking Air Traffic Controllers the bird, is what should have been done to the UAW years ago by The Big 3. They couldn't do it, the UAW was too strong.
Frank D
Kestas
Staff member
I remember from my schooling that this is possible. Theoretically, a union can exist until more than one-half the workforce is unemployed, then a new union is formed. Practically, I'm not sure what forces are at work.
I don't see why Detroit just can't give the finger to the UAW and say adios to them.
I don't see why Detroit just can't give the finger to the UAW and say adios to them.
Ford is selling off most of their 34% of Mazda to raise cash and will no longer have a controlling interest. Too bad they needed to do that, it was a good business relationship.
Instead of throwing money at the big 3 executives, use the proposed bailout as tax breaks for those that buy vehicles from the big 3. Joe buys a GM vehicle and receives a percentage of the purchase price as a tax break or "stimulus" check.
Originally Posted By: mikey12
Instead of throwing money at the big 3 executives, use the proposed bailout as tax breaks for those that buy vehicles from the big 3. Joe buys a GM vehicle and receives a percentage of the purchase price as a tax break or "stimulus" check.
With my GM card earnings, that sounds extra sweet
Instead of throwing money at the big 3 executives, use the proposed bailout as tax breaks for those that buy vehicles from the big 3. Joe buys a GM vehicle and receives a percentage of the purchase price as a tax break or "stimulus" check.
With my GM card earnings, that sounds extra sweet
Originally Posted By: mikey12
Instead of throwing money at the big 3 executives, use the proposed bailout as tax breaks for those that buy vehicles from the big 3. Joe buys a GM vehicle and receives a percentage of the purchase price as a tax break or "stimulus" check.
-1
That is still taxpayer's money and it doesn't address the automakers real problems or force the automakers to address them.
Instead of throwing money at the big 3 executives, use the proposed bailout as tax breaks for those that buy vehicles from the big 3. Joe buys a GM vehicle and receives a percentage of the purchase price as a tax break or "stimulus" check.
-1
That is still taxpayer's money and it doesn't address the automakers real problems or force the automakers to address them.
In no way do I pretend to know the legalities behind telling the UAW to get bent, but it may very well come down to a choice for union workers if they don't get the bail out they're vying for.
Your choice: Agree to a pay cut of X%, or we'll file bankruptcy and send you all home with no job. Which sounds better?
In light of the current economic situation, I tend to think that they'd take some form of continued employment over no employment at all, and worry about recouping their losses later, when the company is is a better position to make concessions on their end.....much like the AA flight attendants, who have been more than patient as far as I'm concerned.
Your choice: Agree to a pay cut of X%, or we'll file bankruptcy and send you all home with no job. Which sounds better?
In light of the current economic situation, I tend to think that they'd take some form of continued employment over no employment at all, and worry about recouping their losses later, when the company is is a better position to make concessions on their end.....much like the AA flight attendants, who have been more than patient as far as I'm concerned.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
I still think there is 1 fundamental thing about bailing out Detroit: it's not going to change what America is buying, at least in the short term. If they go bankrupt and restructure on their own, or even go bankrupt and dissolve, other companies like Toyota will buy their assets and build more cars here - cars that people are actually buying and are profitable. [censored]'s gonna hit the fan regardless of whether we throw 40 billion to Detroit, and there's going to be massive unemployment from Detroit's failings, but it's going to take private investment and management to turn those companies around or for other companies who haven't had their heads up their asses for 2 decades to do it. Bailing them out in anyway will only delay the inevitable.
And unemployment from the collapse of the big 3 will be offset by new employment from whatever rises from the ashes of Detroit.
A rare agreement with drew.
Michigan has been in decline for 6 years and a recession for 4 years, prior to the current crisis.
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=197521
http://blog.mlive.com/tricities/2008/02/bank_economist_four_years_of_m.html
I still think there is 1 fundamental thing about bailing out Detroit: it's not going to change what America is buying, at least in the short term. If they go bankrupt and restructure on their own, or even go bankrupt and dissolve, other companies like Toyota will buy their assets and build more cars here - cars that people are actually buying and are profitable. [censored]'s gonna hit the fan regardless of whether we throw 40 billion to Detroit, and there's going to be massive unemployment from Detroit's failings, but it's going to take private investment and management to turn those companies around or for other companies who haven't had their heads up their asses for 2 decades to do it. Bailing them out in anyway will only delay the inevitable.
And unemployment from the collapse of the big 3 will be offset by new employment from whatever rises from the ashes of Detroit.
A rare agreement with drew.
Michigan has been in decline for 6 years and a recession for 4 years, prior to the current crisis.
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=197521
http://blog.mlive.com/tricities/2008/02/bank_economist_four_years_of_m.html
I watched an interview of some GM bigwig last night on the news, and he's waving his flags in much the same way as anyone else who's in complete denial about what's really wrong at GM. He stated that management and product are not to blame. The current state of the economy is to blame.
Funny that he offered no explanation as to why Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc. are not facing bankruptcy.
Sorry, but the buck stops with management when there's a failure of this magnitude. But I guess if it were my multi-million dollar bonus at stake, I'd do some serious finger-pointing too.
Wait..no I wouldn't. I have scruples.
Funny that he offered no explanation as to why Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc. are not facing bankruptcy.
Sorry, but the buck stops with management when there's a failure of this magnitude. But I guess if it were my multi-million dollar bonus at stake, I'd do some serious finger-pointing too.
Wait..no I wouldn't. I have scruples.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
A rare agreement with drew.
Saatan must be shivering!
A rare agreement with drew.
Saatan must be shivering!
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