It would be a mistake to bust the unions. I was not joking previously about the "new world order" where a handful of multi-national corporations and rich elite run the whole show and the rest of us are paid a pittance. I'm seeing this happen little by little. Then when we all wake up, it will be too late and we'll say "how could we have let this happen?" We should have been protecting our industries and jobs all along, instead of letting them go to China, India, etc. Now look at the mess we're in. Foreign industries get giveaway corporate welfare deals in southern states like Alabama, the Senator from AL thinks the big 3 are "dinosaur", where he has an interest in seeing the big 3 fail. Maybe he can give more deals like that to other foreign companies then pass the check to the taxpayers of AL.
Chinese to buy GM and Chrysler
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In the Auto Industry busting the UAW is the only thing that will save them. They held the American Auto Industry hostage, with their demands, and made them compete on an un-level playing field. The CEO's and upper level management and their pay plans didn't help either. Tossing them a bailout will only allow the greed to continue a little longer.
Sad state of affairs, I would hate to see the Big 3 go belly up, but my bet is if everything is left as is and they are given the bailout money, greed will sink them anyway.
Its like giving a Junky one last fix because he promised to stop shooting up. Left as is nothing good will come of this.
Frank D
Sad state of affairs, I would hate to see the Big 3 go belly up, but my bet is if everything is left as is and they are given the bailout money, greed will sink them anyway.
Its like giving a Junky one last fix because he promised to stop shooting up. Left as is nothing good will come of this.
Frank D
Foreign car made in America crew signing in.
it'll be interesting to see what kind of plan the big2.8 (that's how someone on thetruthaboutcars referred to them) come back with. it better be revolutionary.
when I was selling cars for a while, I had one customer who thought they could just come in, pick out a car, sign for the loan and drive out (like most people 'think' they can do). it took all day to get that deal finalized. IIRC, the bank said they had to trade in TWO of his vehicles to make it work (they wanted to keep one of them for their daughter). these people made like $80K a year, but because of debt/income ratio, they STILL couldn't buy a $20 saturn!
point being, the 'little people' can't get away w/ deficit spending, but the gov't does. the 'little people' can't borrow money when they already owe too much, but that's what industry is allowed to do.
the US will continue on in some form after big auto collapses. it'll just be DIFFERENT. speaking locally, Bethlehem Steel went away, life goes on. Lucent went away, life goes on. how many auto factories have went under/closed in the last 50 years and life still goes on? NYC lost many/all it's factories over the years, but there is still a NYC.
sorry, I just realized this post is rambling, continue please...
when I was selling cars for a while, I had one customer who thought they could just come in, pick out a car, sign for the loan and drive out (like most people 'think' they can do). it took all day to get that deal finalized. IIRC, the bank said they had to trade in TWO of his vehicles to make it work (they wanted to keep one of them for their daughter). these people made like $80K a year, but because of debt/income ratio, they STILL couldn't buy a $20 saturn!
point being, the 'little people' can't get away w/ deficit spending, but the gov't does. the 'little people' can't borrow money when they already owe too much, but that's what industry is allowed to do.
the US will continue on in some form after big auto collapses. it'll just be DIFFERENT. speaking locally, Bethlehem Steel went away, life goes on. Lucent went away, life goes on. how many auto factories have went under/closed in the last 50 years and life still goes on? NYC lost many/all it's factories over the years, but there is still a NYC.
sorry, I just realized this post is rambling, continue please...
I don't know what the whole answer is( other than the obvious - cut the pork and bust up the UAW )but I know what it ISN'T and that is letting the big 3 fail. You can't give 700 billion to companies with trillions of dollars in assets to save their CEO's and stock holders but let the auto companies go belly up which will impact millions of average folks in this country. If the big 3 go under a lot more people will lose their jobs, homes, etc... than just employees of that company.
Keep that in mind when you talk of screw greedy exec's and union workers( btw - I agree the unions and exec's are greedy and need to go ). EVERYONE gets screwed. Go back a few pages and read the article another person posted about the negative consequences to letting them fail. That article is 100% dead on nuts accurate.
I would much rather my tax dollars go to bailing out Detroit than bailing out Wall Street. Don't forget Chrysler was bailed out in like 79/80 and they came back strong from that, and repaid their loan, until this recent issue. It is possible for the government to loan these companies money, have them restructure, repay the loan, and actually survive with the right leadership. Letting the big 3 die is just plain STUPID!
They have made mistakes yes but they are far from alone in that and letting them die, as I have said, means more then just those 3 companies die. Don't we as consumers also share in the blame? Isn't it the US consumer that demanded big gas guzzling SUV's and trucks, even when they weren't needed, from the big 3? They simply made what WE asked them for. Granted they took too long to realize times were changing but they didn't FORCE anything on us as some have said. We jumped with eyes wide open.
It isn't easy to just jump from SUV's and truck production to small economy models overnight which is EXACTLY what consumer demand has done. We demanded the gas pigs on Monday and by Friday we demanded the fuel misers. You can't just change gears like that, overnight, in a manufacturing company. "Some" of this actually is the current economic and energy driven situation and not all the fault of these car companies.
Keep it firmly in your mind, as you call for the demise of the big 3, that it would affect MILLIONS of people and not in a good way. The potential for a depression like non ever seen is there( worse than the late 20's/early 30's ).
How would doing so effect the average person right away? Well, if you own a new(er) GM, Ford, or Chrysler you can kiss your factory warranty, as well as your expensive extended warranty, good buy. How would you feel if you were going to lose your warranty on that new foreing vehicle? Toyota, Honda, Hyundai or any combo of auto mfg's left could go next if the big 3 do( domino effect cased by fall out - very possible - many experts predicting it ). For cars in general in a very short time you will find it almost impossible to find replacement parts when needed. When you can the price will be astronomical. Can you say $1000 for a shock absorber. Millions and millions of cars that have no warranty and no replacement parts available yet people still having to pay for them. Cars will break down, people can't afford to fix them or can't get parts so they can't get to work, bankruptcy numbers will sore and on and on.
If you let the big 3 die you kill more than Ford, GM, and Chrysler. You kill our country. Also, the big 3 actually make some really good cars. A perfect example is the Chevy Impala. It is one of the best on the road bar none. Roomy, well built, and excellent MPG. Great competition for the foreign sedans like the Camry. Unfortunately, people have it in their head that only foreign cars are any good which is [censored]! Chrysler has some good vehicles and so does Ford but people don’t give them a chance( or can't afford them which I get - union costs rear their ugly head again ).
You know, the worst vehicle I ever owned( reliability wise )was a Toyota( 2005 Tacoma ). I have had Dodges and Chevy's all my life except for that one Toilet. More trouble in 7 months with that Toyota than all the others combined in 20+ years owning new vehicles. It was a hunk of junk that I paid a fortune for.
The big 3 need help to stay afloat. They need to cut the CEO salaries, eliminate wasteful spending, and get the costs of operating( ie: UNION )down so they can lower the price of their vehicles. Once that is done people need to buy them. They are every bit as good as the foreign stuff. These are not Pinto's, Vega's, and the like. The big 3 make some really good vehicles.
I know I am not alone in this either. I do NOT want to buy a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, etc... I don't want to support a company that is owned by corporations from other countries. Even if they have factories here. Frankly that is part of the problem right there. This country is being sold and divided up bit by bit. Pretty soon it will be the USA = United States Of Asia.
God help us if those idiots in Washington let these US companies fail. Apply restrictions and do what needs to be done to ensure the money is repaid but HELP THEM before it is too late. If not it is going to hurt us ALL even if you drive a foreign auto.
Keep that in mind when you talk of screw greedy exec's and union workers( btw - I agree the unions and exec's are greedy and need to go ). EVERYONE gets screwed. Go back a few pages and read the article another person posted about the negative consequences to letting them fail. That article is 100% dead on nuts accurate.
I would much rather my tax dollars go to bailing out Detroit than bailing out Wall Street. Don't forget Chrysler was bailed out in like 79/80 and they came back strong from that, and repaid their loan, until this recent issue. It is possible for the government to loan these companies money, have them restructure, repay the loan, and actually survive with the right leadership. Letting the big 3 die is just plain STUPID!
They have made mistakes yes but they are far from alone in that and letting them die, as I have said, means more then just those 3 companies die. Don't we as consumers also share in the blame? Isn't it the US consumer that demanded big gas guzzling SUV's and trucks, even when they weren't needed, from the big 3? They simply made what WE asked them for. Granted they took too long to realize times were changing but they didn't FORCE anything on us as some have said. We jumped with eyes wide open.
It isn't easy to just jump from SUV's and truck production to small economy models overnight which is EXACTLY what consumer demand has done. We demanded the gas pigs on Monday and by Friday we demanded the fuel misers. You can't just change gears like that, overnight, in a manufacturing company. "Some" of this actually is the current economic and energy driven situation and not all the fault of these car companies.
Keep it firmly in your mind, as you call for the demise of the big 3, that it would affect MILLIONS of people and not in a good way. The potential for a depression like non ever seen is there( worse than the late 20's/early 30's ).
How would doing so effect the average person right away? Well, if you own a new(er) GM, Ford, or Chrysler you can kiss your factory warranty, as well as your expensive extended warranty, good buy. How would you feel if you were going to lose your warranty on that new foreing vehicle? Toyota, Honda, Hyundai or any combo of auto mfg's left could go next if the big 3 do( domino effect cased by fall out - very possible - many experts predicting it ). For cars in general in a very short time you will find it almost impossible to find replacement parts when needed. When you can the price will be astronomical. Can you say $1000 for a shock absorber. Millions and millions of cars that have no warranty and no replacement parts available yet people still having to pay for them. Cars will break down, people can't afford to fix them or can't get parts so they can't get to work, bankruptcy numbers will sore and on and on.
If you let the big 3 die you kill more than Ford, GM, and Chrysler. You kill our country. Also, the big 3 actually make some really good cars. A perfect example is the Chevy Impala. It is one of the best on the road bar none. Roomy, well built, and excellent MPG. Great competition for the foreign sedans like the Camry. Unfortunately, people have it in their head that only foreign cars are any good which is [censored]! Chrysler has some good vehicles and so does Ford but people don’t give them a chance( or can't afford them which I get - union costs rear their ugly head again ).
You know, the worst vehicle I ever owned( reliability wise )was a Toyota( 2005 Tacoma ). I have had Dodges and Chevy's all my life except for that one Toilet. More trouble in 7 months with that Toyota than all the others combined in 20+ years owning new vehicles. It was a hunk of junk that I paid a fortune for.
The big 3 need help to stay afloat. They need to cut the CEO salaries, eliminate wasteful spending, and get the costs of operating( ie: UNION )down so they can lower the price of their vehicles. Once that is done people need to buy them. They are every bit as good as the foreign stuff. These are not Pinto's, Vega's, and the like. The big 3 make some really good vehicles.
I know I am not alone in this either. I do NOT want to buy a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, etc... I don't want to support a company that is owned by corporations from other countries. Even if they have factories here. Frankly that is part of the problem right there. This country is being sold and divided up bit by bit. Pretty soon it will be the USA = United States Of Asia.
God help us if those idiots in Washington let these US companies fail. Apply restrictions and do what needs to be done to ensure the money is repaid but HELP THEM before it is too late. If not it is going to hurt us ALL even if you drive a foreign auto.
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Buggies,saddles, and the pony express went out of business.
Let em go. New business building better cars for the future will emerge replacing all the lost jobs.
Washington will save them for now. Wait and see. They will get there 25 billion the 2nd week of dec.
Let em go. New business building better cars for the future will emerge replacing all the lost jobs.
Washington will save them for now. Wait and see. They will get there 25 billion the 2nd week of dec.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Buggies,saddles, and the pony express went out of business.
Let em go. New business building better cars for the future will emerge replacing all the lost jobs.
Washington will save them for now. Wait and see. They will get there 25 billion the 2nd week of dec.
For that matter, most of the "household names" weve known have turned to nothing or a licensed symbol for Chinese stuff... think westinghouse, GE, etc. The companies may still exist, but they arent truly household names anymore if you see who is really making their non large-capital stuff...
Buggies,saddles, and the pony express went out of business.
Let em go. New business building better cars for the future will emerge replacing all the lost jobs.
Washington will save them for now. Wait and see. They will get there 25 billion the 2nd week of dec.
For that matter, most of the "household names" weve known have turned to nothing or a licensed symbol for Chinese stuff... think westinghouse, GE, etc. The companies may still exist, but they arent truly household names anymore if you see who is really making their non large-capital stuff...
NH, I have a worse yet realistic and probable scenario than you painted.
Give them the taxpayer funded bailout, then still have the same dire consequences you predict.
As long as the automakers are blaming the customers for their problems, they won't make it, even with a bail-out.
Give them the taxpayer funded bailout, then still have the same dire consequences you predict.
As long as the automakers are blaming the customers for their problems, they won't make it, even with a bail-out.
I think letting the big 3 go into bankrupcy courts is the right thing to do.
Too many engineering managers across different GM product lines will use all their influence and scare techs to frighten the CEO from putting together a plan before Dec 02,08. That is plain simple not going to happen, the congress is out of its minds to give 2 weeks to come up with a plan. They never will come up with a plan, if they could put together one, they would have done it yrs ago and put into into play.
Unions are a piece of garbage. How did they rack up labor costs to astronomical figures, by putting production lines on hold till their terms were met..
With a bankrupcy judge going over the financials, decisions are made fast and quick, unlike getting blessings from each product engg mananger. BTW, they set themselves to failure, they will fail with/without the $25B. Might else well fail now and get the cleanup going soon.
Too many engineering managers across different GM product lines will use all their influence and scare techs to frighten the CEO from putting together a plan before Dec 02,08. That is plain simple not going to happen, the congress is out of its minds to give 2 weeks to come up with a plan. They never will come up with a plan, if they could put together one, they would have done it yrs ago and put into into play.
Unions are a piece of garbage. How did they rack up labor costs to astronomical figures, by putting production lines on hold till their terms were met..
With a bankrupcy judge going over the financials, decisions are made fast and quick, unlike getting blessings from each product engg mananger. BTW, they set themselves to failure, they will fail with/without the $25B. Might else well fail now and get the cleanup going soon.
One thing to note, there were wage concessions as part of the Chrysler deal in the 80s, that was how the CAW was formed, they wanted Canadian workers to take wage cuts demanded by the U.S. govt and I think they were making less than their U.S. counterpartments at the time and the UAW agreed to the deal so the Canadian section of the union pulled out and formed their own union.
Originally Posted By: Duffman77
Originally Posted By: Steve S
The unions only get what management gives them. No matter how you look at is it is the overpaid underperforming management.
The unions hold the company management hostage every time the contract comes up for renewal by striking, meanwhile taking strike pay from the workers who continue to work for the other big 2. The company that is on strike has no choice but to capitulate. It's illegal for industry to collude but its ok when the union does it.
Very good point.
Originally Posted By: Steve S
The unions only get what management gives them. No matter how you look at is it is the overpaid underperforming management.
The unions hold the company management hostage every time the contract comes up for renewal by striking, meanwhile taking strike pay from the workers who continue to work for the other big 2. The company that is on strike has no choice but to capitulate. It's illegal for industry to collude but its ok when the union does it.
Very good point.
Unions have their place, but it sounds like your are too free.
Down here, if you are on strike, there's no pay. The boss can take the matter to the Industrial Relations Commission, who can organise a hearing within an hour of notification, and order the workers back (under threat of fines).
They can also order the employers to negotiate rather than stonewall.
Down here, if you are on strike, there's no pay. The boss can take the matter to the Industrial Relations Commission, who can organise a hearing within an hour of notification, and order the workers back (under threat of fines).
They can also order the employers to negotiate rather than stonewall.
What is the CEOs compensation package?
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: StevieC
If the US is anything like Canada, then a lot of the money has to be kept in the country and re-invested... We too have the 3 big three going belly-up in our Country, but we also have lots of Toyota/Honda plants going up and most people are still worried. I think this is inevitable. The Market is saturated and people don't have money to keep throwing away on inferior products. The customers will always vote with their feet and take their money to where value is perceived.
I'm from Ontario too
Your last word is key: percieved. And it is that, that Ford, GM and Chrysler are fighting against; people's perception.
Blame the victim?
Originally Posted By: StevieC
If the US is anything like Canada, then a lot of the money has to be kept in the country and re-invested... We too have the 3 big three going belly-up in our Country, but we also have lots of Toyota/Honda plants going up and most people are still worried. I think this is inevitable. The Market is saturated and people don't have money to keep throwing away on inferior products. The customers will always vote with their feet and take their money to where value is perceived.
I'm from Ontario too
Your last word is key: percieved. And it is that, that Ford, GM and Chrysler are fighting against; people's perception.
Blame the victim?
People didn't "overnight" decide to stop buying GM, Chrysler, Ford products... They have been slowly loosing market share for years and doing nothing about it.
Customers perceive better value with the "foreign" auto-makers and thus have attracted the customers away from the domestic auto-makers.
Instead of the domestic auto-makers trying to win them back, they kept crying to the government that they were going to shut down plants unless they were given tax breaks and some sort of other concessions instead of trying to beat the competition at their own strategies.
So yes I blame the victims! (My opinion)
Customers perceive better value with the "foreign" auto-makers and thus have attracted the customers away from the domestic auto-makers.
Instead of the domestic auto-makers trying to win them back, they kept crying to the government that they were going to shut down plants unless they were given tax breaks and some sort of other concessions instead of trying to beat the competition at their own strategies.
So yes I blame the victims! (My opinion)
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