Chinese to buy GM and Chrysler

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Oh come on, Honda makes MASSIVELY more money per car than GM; their costs per vehicle, because of their company structure, lack of unions and legacy costs dictates that!

So you don't have a clue how much they make per car.





And neither do you, because neither of us work in Honda's Accounting Department. But they are obviously MAKING money.

 

[javacontour]

So what I'm gathering is that the most patriotic thing

to do is to NOT buy an American car since they are losing money on them.

No problem, I can do that.

 

[StevieC]

Probably more than the American Car Companies... I know from the stories that my dad told me these companies use to waste tons of money on labor per hour, union rules etc. My dad could have taken so much paid time off like others because of the "Union Agreement" but he never did because he couldn't do it for his own morals stopped him. But you should have seen the [censored] people got away with.

He was then "Packaged" off and told to retire, which he didn't care 'cos hes wealthy from other businesses he owns anyways... Besides the point.

I know from some of the people I work with who also worked for Honda or Toyota here in Ontario and they don't have unions, get paid a fair wage and everything revolves around "Doing it right" "Quality First" etc.

They even setup day-cares at these factories for the kids of workers as a perk. Cheaper than paying for time off etc.

I just think that the Big-3 and it's workers have milked and guzzled the old cow for too long , and there is no more milk in the cow. Where as the Japanese & Koreans have always rationed the milk to ensure future survival.

We could be the leader in NA in some many ways, but we waste waste waste then react react react...

 

[opus1]

Well, in my mind, Mexico is more "central" than "north" America, but, yes, by every definition it's part of North America.

So I guess I'm a xenophobe and should have said that I wanted my "American" car to be made in the USA....

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: opus1
Well, in my mind, Mexico is more "central" than "north" America, but, yes, by every definition it's part of North America.

So I guess I'm a xenophobe and should have said that I wanted my "American" car to be made in the USA....


But then you are being biased against your (very financially intertwined) neighbours to the North

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: opus1
Well, in my mind, Mexico is more "central" than "north" America, but, yes, by every definition it's part of North America.

So I guess I'm a xenophobe and should have said that I wanted my "American" car to be made in the USA....


Central America is in North America too.

 

[Tempest]

A little old, but plenty of monitary statistics:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/26/news/companies/pluggedin_taylor_ford.fortune/index.htm

Quote:
According to the latest calculations, the gap between Japanese and American carmakers' profits average out to about $2900 per vehicle, and the home team does not have the advantage.

 

[StevieC]

Look guys... I'm super patriotic for my Country (Canada), and I'm very friendly and hold the US with high regard as I believe it's a great country.

We need to change our ways, and move forward in this global economy. We have so many resources and such rich countries yet we screw around with everything.

Why can't we just get our [censored] together and be the leaders for once.

Be the best of the best and show the world what we can do, instead of invading the world and stealing resources.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Probably more than the American Car Companies... I know from the stories that my dad told me these companies use to waste tons of money on labor per hour, union rules etc. My dad could have taken so much paid time off like others because of the "Union Agreement" but he never did because he couldn't do it for his own morals stopped him. But you should have seen the [censored] people got away with.

He was then "Packaged" off and told to retire, which he didn't care 'cos hes wealthy from other businesses he owns anyways... Besides the point.

I know from some of the people I work with who also worked for Honda or Toyota here in Ontario and they don't have unions, get paid a fair wage and everything revolves around "Doing it right" "Quality First" etc.

They even setup day-cares at these factories for the kids of workers as a perk. Cheaper than paying for time off etc.

I just think that the Big-3 and it's workers have milked and guzzled the old cow for too long , and there is no more milk in the cow. Where as the Japanese & Koreans have always rationed the milk to ensure future survival.

We could be the leader in NA in some many ways, but we waste waste waste then react react react...



The Union workers at GM, Ford and Chrysler make substantially more (especially the ones with any sort of seniority) than those non-union guys working at the Toyota and Honda plants.

But I am sure the lack of the feelings of "entitlement" in the non-union environment shows it's merit. Probably a much more efficient work-force overall. Because if you don't do your job, you can lose it.....

 

[StevieC]

That's what we need. Praise for Good, punishment for bad... Not these Unions that promote laziness in the name of "Job Security" and then package off hard working people for all their efforts with a [censored] buyout package and a nice gold pin like my dad!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Look guys... I'm super patriotic for my Country (Canada), and I'm very friendly and hold the US with high regard as I believe it's a great country.

We need to change our ways, and move forward in this global economy. We have so many resources and such rich countries yet we screw around with everything.

Why can't we just get our [censored] together and be the leaders for once.

Be the best of the best and show the world what we can do, instead of invading the world and stealing resources.



Greed. At all levels.

 

[StevieC]

The problem is that the North American Auto industry relies on heavy demand because of the amount of units it needs to produce in order to keep everyone employed and the profits flowing... The problem is that Vehicles are lasting a lot longer these days, the economy keeps getting tighter and tighter with disposable income, and the market is already saturated with vehicles because of a lot of boomers retiring and not needing as many. Somethings gotta give.

This all happened before in the 50's / 60's with the Appliance industry. Same [censored] different product. Now history is repeating itself.

We need to sell Energy through renewable sources... That is 100% completely renewable and we have a ton of it in Canada/US.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
A little old, but plenty of monitary statistics:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/26/news/companies/pluggedin_taylor_ford.fortune/index.htm

Quote:
According to the latest calculations, the gap between Japanese and American carmakers' profits average out to about $2900 per vehicle, and the home team does not have the advantage.



Interesting article, if you read the article and apply some elementary school math, a bit over 1/2 of that difference is labor and a bit under 1/2 is that people aren't willing to pay as much for equivalent American cars.

When the big 3 owned the US market, they were perfectly willing to give the unions whatever they wanted because all 3 were in the same boat and could pass it on to their customers who didn't have much choice about what they bought. The same for chrap quality. As long as Ford, GM and Chrysler were the only real game in town, they could foist all sorts of 2nd rate quality off on their customers and they did.

I get no joy from seeing the US car makers going down the tubes, but their management earned it for them.

The US car companies need to be disassembled to the point that they can be restructured with new management and new work rules. New work rules and getting labor under control can be done with restructuring. Unfortunately, I doubt that the people running the show have what it takes to put competent management in place.

 

[StevieC]

Well Said... I agree completely. If that happened I would buy a vehicle from the big-3 again!

 

[OVERKILL]

Indeed, well said XS650.

It's already started (somewhat) at Ford. The Fusion is a fantastic car. The newer F-series trucks are great as well. The Escape also seems to be a great vehicle, and the Focus isn't too bad either. The fact that GM and Chrysler are in worse shape than Ford, whereas in that article, Ford was in the worst shape shows that at least SOMETHING is going right for them. Though will it be enough? That we don't know

They still have the Unions and legacy costs, but DO seem to be genuinely trying to fix things.

GM is a HUGE company to turn around..... They, IMHO, are going to have the biggest problem, which is why, right now, they are the closest to being completely screwed.....

 

[StevieC]

It would be cheaper to offer the current union workers the choice of a package and a handshake or a reduce wage and overhaul the company and start doing business like the competitors. Why can't we build quality vehicles cheaper than the competition, when they can build them in foreign lands using imported materials and then pay to ship them to NA? Why can they afford to build plants in our backyards when we were here first and could have salvaged the industry by catering to the masses using our own domestic advantages?

Because of GREED! The big-3 wanted to squeeze profits by feeding us inferior quality in the past. Well now the piper has come to collect.

PAY UP I SAY... PAY UP!

 

[MrCritical]

I have a few points I'd like you to consider.

If GM goes into bankruptcy, there's no promise that they will come out of it, even Chapter 11. Besides the millions of people who work for GM or at a dealership, there are over 1300 companies that supply the automobile industry in America. Many of them will go down with GM. Many of them also supply Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subaru/Mercedes/BMW, and Hyundai in the U.S.

This country very well may not survive that many people out of work and bankrupt at one time, on top of the financial disasters we already have. If the logic of any of this sounds weak to you, do your own math.

 

[kingrob]

How bout the government letting the big three sort things out for themselves and instead use that bailout money to fund a new domestic automaker, free of Union trappings? Until the Big 3 decide that the only way to begin to fix things is to disband union labor in their plants, we could have a new domestic company that makes good cars that people want to buy. Saturn did it initially funded by GM, why can't someone else do it with Gubbmint funding?

 

[StevieC]

So should we keep buying vehicles and throwing them away every couple of years because it's the right thing to do? Should we go through personal bankruptcy to keep the auto industry afloat? What happens when we no longer have money for cars anymore? Then who's gonna bail them out? It's gonna happen to the Japanese/Koreans too. There is too many cars, not enough demand. The industry has become too efficient at mass-producing the products. It's inevitable.

I work in the restaurant industry and I know that my industry will be affected by not having people purchasing our food because they are unemployed, but he cycle can't keep going the same way over and over. Without change you can't expect change.

Sometimes Change hurts, but it is necessary for us to learn so we don't repeat again.

I know exactly where you are coming from, we have a town called Oshawa that is about to collapse because it all focuses around a GM plan.

Well who's fault is it that everyone put their eggs in one basket? GM? Peoples? Government? - All 3 & miss management by the corporation.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes, Oshawa is completely screwed. Many people from Peterborough work there... It's very scary.