Cheapo Engine Flushes

[TC]

OK, junior chemists. Get out your chemistry sets!

I checked the MSDSs for one "premium" and two "cheapo" engine flush products and came up with these basic formulations:

1. Auto RX - long term use
--% Lanolin esters
--% aliphatic ester
--% polyol ester

2. Valvoline/Pyroil Engine Flush - 5 min flush
85%-95% kerosene

3. Alemite CD2 Oil Detergent - long term use
100% of two different grades of mineral oil

My question is, what are the basic pro's & con's of these formulations? Such as impact on seals, impact on lube oil performance for longer-term use, and the possibility of scavenging large quantities of sludge/crud into oil passages at one time. And before it inevitably comes up, I'll suggest that just because kerosene and mineral oil are cheap, low-tech formulations doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean they're "bad" treatments. I was hoping for a few objective thumbnail comments as to the precise affects a chemist would expect from each of these three formulations. THANKS!

One last thing...
Valvoline claims "Pyroil Engine Flush dissolves sludge gently. Some engine flushes are too strong and can plug critical oil passages with dislodged particles. Since Pyroil Engine Flush contains no chlorinated solvents or low flash solvents, it is safe to use." I'm wondering, how can one "gently" remove sludge from an engine in just 5 minutes? Isn't that like "gently" removing a room full of wallpaper in just 5 minutes?...by "gently" using small explosive charges, I presume?

[ November 15, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[TC]

Here's two more just for fun...

4. Marvel Mystery - long term use
70%-80% naphtha
20%-30% mineral spirits

5. Rislone Engine Treatment - long term use
80%-90% naphtha
5%-10% proprietary

 

[Pablo]

I certainly wouldn't use 3,4 or 5 long term, but solvent flushes do have their place.

 

[Holden McRoin]

I would certainly just buy kerosene for $1.60 per gallon and save a lot of money.
BTW---kerosene would certainly fail the styrofoam coffee cup test, however diluted by 2 quarts of motor oil and run only 5mins it won't hurt the seals but may open them.

 

[Neil Womack]

I'm not recommending this.

However, When I was a baby Pit Snipe, my boss, Machinist Mate Chief Petty Officer, used a three step engine flush. One drain and file with JP-5 ( kerosene ) leaving the old filter on. Two drain and flush with reduction gear oil. Three change oil and filter with his favorite brand of oil and filter. The kero clean cycle last 10 or 15 minutes at idle only. The reduction gear oil cycle lasted long enough to go get more beer.

By the way he owned a early 60s model Impala since new and was still driving it when I knew him from 77 to 80. That had to be 15 of those rinse cycles with no engine damage sever enough to shell the bearings or rings.

Just a thought for you adventurious types.

 

[widman]

There are two traditional flush systems here:
1. Drain oil and refill with Diesel fuel. Run 5 minutes and drain.
2. Drain oil and refill with a mixture of 1 cup powdered laundry detergent and 4 liters of hot water. Run 10 minutes and drain, then flush with diesel fuel as above.

You don't have to be stupid to be a mechanic around here, but it helps.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I work with an old tech. thatdid the following on his vechiles. Drain old oil fill with Kerosine and run at idle until oil pressure droped. Drain and refill with oil and a fresh filter.

I could never bring myself to use more then a quart of kerosine in a standard sized sump!! It just seemed easier to me to keep the engine clean then try to clean it out!!

I do not have anything against the use of mild solvents from time to time but I do not belive they should be used freq.!!

I also think that with cleaners like 131,Auto-Rv and Lube control that just dumping JP-8,JP-5 or 5 minute flush type additives kind of obsolete!

 

[TC]

Thanks for the feedback, folks. It's not uncommon to hear "...cures every problem including cancer" claims for many boutique additives, so I was looking for some objective comparison to the old standbys such as kerosene, etc. Sounds like the old-school formulas still do have their place, especially for infrequent use in mildly "soiled" engines. The consensus appears that a better choice for more challenging sludge monsters would be the modern formulations (Auto RX, etc.).

 

[userfriendly]

How about taking off the oil pan and rocker covers and having them hot tanked or spray washed?
Then buy the cheapest 59 cent oil and $2.00 filter, run that for a day or two then change the oil and filter again.
You could always add (no more than) a quart of diesel fuel to the oil and run the engine at fast idle for 5 minutes before changing the oil, but just this once.
Let the hot oil drain for 30 minutes.
Run a good HDMO 15W40 or 10W30 for the next 1,000 miles then switch to a synthetic HDMO 5W40 for the next change.
After that, your engine will be as clean as it needs to be, your oil will stay cleaner looking longer, and you can go back to a regular engine oil and forget the synthetics except for extreme cold starting purposes.

 

[Leo]

I knew a guy who used to pour petrol into his engine onces hes drained out the oil... Pretty hardcore if you ask me...

 

[Scali62]

I have an issue with a ticky lifter {s} ..
I run Marval Mystery Oil religiously.
It kepes them quiet, does the job.
Add 1 qt. in a 4 qt. sump in between 3k mile oil changes as well as another qt. of 5/30, have been for 30k , no problems.
Highway driving, even some boat towing.

 

[JeepZJ4.0]

I wonder.... would a 5 min flush like the Pyrol/Valvoline (i've also used Gunk brand b4) be safe to use on a 4.0L Jeep engine. It's an old design so i don't think it would hurt. I'm gonna try Auto RX but its kinda pricy for a HS student. My Jeep has 72K miles, with no history of past maintainence... we bought it used.

[ November 17, 2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: JeepZJ4.0 ]

 

[TC]

My 2 cents here for JeepZJ4.0...

I've always used an engine flush of some type in each used car I purchased, if for no other reason than to get a "warm and fuzzy" feeling as part of my first oil change. Industry surveys have revealed that oil changes are typically done at 9,000 miles (per an L.A. Times article I saved), so drivers are definitely exceeding the manufacturers' recommendations, unless the maintenance records you acquire show otherwise. If you look through the oil filler cap and see relatively little sludge or varnish, I would think that any of the major brands of flushes could be used "safely" if their instructions are followed. Just assume that some amount of gunk will be released into the filter, so plan for a prompt filter change after treatment.

If you see a lot of gunk through the filler cap, that complicates things a bit. A 5 minute "shock" treatment could potentially release a load of junk into the lube system (although Valvoline claims otherwise). For truly dirty engines, perhaps a gradual approach would be safer...? The Auto RX website talks about this, and TooSlick has recommended the Amsoil treatment. Or maybe modest amounts of the cheaper treatments would be just fine over time. I personally don't believe in routinely using ANY oil additive, but only using them for short term fixes for a given problem -- leave the lube formulation to Pennzoil, Castrol, etc. By the way, Scali62, my dad once used Marvel Mystery "snake oil" (my thoughts at the time) about 20 years ago on my mom's '69 Mercury wagon with a seemingly unstoppable lifter tick. The tick was gone within a week. Score one for the Mystery snake oil!

 

[JeepZJ4.0]

Thanks TC! A thought just crossed my mind... what if I did a treatment of Auto-RX, then 2 oil changes later did a 5 min flush to really flush out the rest of the stuff. The AutoRX would have dissolved alot of the big stuff that could clog the oil passages. I don't believe that there is any varnish under the oilcap. I can't really check now, we are getting hammered by rain here in Houston.

 

[deepsquat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JeepZJ4.0:
I wonder.... would a 5 min flush like the Pyrol/Valvoline (i've also used Gunk brand b4) be safe to use on a 4.0L Jeep engine. It's an old design so i don't think it would hurt. I'm gonna try Auto RX but its kinda pricy for a HS student. My Jeep has 72K miles, with no history of past maintainence... we bought it used.

---

If it is too pricey for you why not order some Nutra (sp ) from Tim Mills??? cost like 4-5 $$

 

[Pablo]

JeepZJ4.0 - see my website. That is exactly why I designed the triple whammy flush...

Royal Flush

 

[JeepZJ4.0]

quote:

---

Originally posted by deepsquat:
If it is too pricey for you why not order some Nutra (sp ) from Tim Mills??? cost like 4-5 $$

---

I read on here that Nuetra 131 can make seals swell.

Pablo, nice flush technique. I doubt my 4.0L is that dirty. Although I have this one question... my oil capacity with a FL1A filter is about 6.3L. The Auto RX site calls for 14oz for 6 quarts but that means 2 bottles i'd have to buy. Thats 50 bucks.... Could i just run the 12 Oz dose for 1750 miles instead of 1500? I also read that ARX works better with hot running engines and if u've seen my driving habits on the Car Engine section, hot temps don't last long. It does have good oil pressure though.

[ November 17, 2003, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: JeepZJ4.0 ]

 

[rugerman1]

Neutra will not cause seals to swell.Bob did a test in which he soaked rubber o-rings in various fluids and measured their size with a caliper.

 

[TC]

JeepZJ4.0: You need to get a flashlight and survey the valvetrain under the oil filler cap. If it's relatively clean, then I'd suggest a one-time flush could be helpful, only because you don't know anything about the vehicle's history. From then on, assuming you routinely change the oil and filter, you shouldn't have much to worry about for a long time. As for a one-time flush, the other folks have provided some good leads into specific products to try. But one thing seems obvious to me -- if your engine is relatively clean, then whichever flush you buy should be inexpensive. A "challenging" cleaning problem might require a sophisticated cleaning product (read "expensive"). A relatively clean engine would not. As for varnish, it's mainly a discoloration and not a problem unless it's heavy. But sludge is a baddie under any circumstance.

 

[JeepZJ4.0]

I'll check the cap tomorrow. After seeing all the results, I think the one time AutoRX treatment shall be just fine. Thanks for all your help guys!