Case for bigger Gov.

[IndyIan]

My $0.02,
No one I know in Canada has ever taken a job to get health insurance or coverage.
I know of atleast one person in the U.S. who joined the military to get health coverage for his wife as she was pregnant...

Maybe the Canadian health system is kind of like democracy, the worst system except for all the rest...

For people with money, its annoying not to get put first in line for once, but then they can go to the US or India if they can't wait for a bit.
Ian

 

[firemachine69]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
My $0.02,
No one I know in Canada has ever taken a job to get health insurance or coverage.
I know of atleast one person in the U.S. who joined the military to get health coverage for his wife as she was pregnant...

Maybe the Canadian health system is kind of like democracy, the worst system except for all the rest...

For people with money, its annoying not to get put first in line for once, but then they can go to the US or India if they can't wait for a bit.
Ian




Actually, there's technical laws that prohibit that...

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: firemachine69




Actually, there's technical laws that prohibit that...

Leaving the country? Really? Well who is to say why you are going to the US? I can see how they might not like getting you back needing intensive care after an operation out of the country, but I can't see not getting treated either.

I'm not loaded enough to get two stiches put in the US with out travel insurance so I haven't looked into it.
Ian

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Barkleymut
Ask all of the Canadians who come down to the US for medical care because:

1. Good Canadian Drs end up in the US so they can actually make money (yes the most important and intelligent folks do deserve more $$)

2. The waiting period for socialized healthcare is ridiculous (guess they've never heard the saying an oz of prevention is worth a pound of cure)

3. Taxes- I pay enough thank you; I have zero desire to pay 55% of my earnings to the govt

4. Cure rates - bottom line the US is THE BEST when it comes to saving lives - thats what its all about right? Why do we have UPS and Fedex if the govt way of mail delivery is the best?


Pablo and I beat this topic to death in an earlier thread. There are/were a large number of Americans coming "north of the border" and using our healthcare system as well.

And healthcare in Canada varies from city to city, province to province. Most of the "outrageous wait times" rants come from people in cities that do not represent the general state of Canadian health care. Most places, the wait times are just fine.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


And healthcare in Canada varies from city to city, province to province. Most of the "outrageous wait times" rants come from people in cities that do not represent the general state of Canadian health care. Most places, the wait times are just fine.


And how is that any different for folks here in the US. Most folks in the US DO have health coverage, yet the extreme examples keep getting presented by those who champion socialized medicine here in the US.

So if your argument is that long waits are an exception, and therefore the system is good enough, then why is that argument then rejected when it's used to discuss the US system?

Most folks do have health insurance here. But because a few don't they declare the system broken.

It's no more broken than the Canadian system.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


And healthcare in Canada varies from city to city, province to province. Most of the "outrageous wait times" rants come from people in cities that do not represent the general state of Canadian health care. Most places, the wait times are just fine.


And how is that any different for folks here in the US. Most folks in the US DO have health coverage, yet the extreme examples keep getting presented by those who champion socialized medicine here in the US.

So if your argument is that long waits are an exception, and therefore the system is good enough, then why is that argument then rejected when it's used to discuss the US system?

Most folks do have health insurance here. But because a few don't they declare the system broken.

It's no more broken than the Canadian system.


I didn't say it was perfect

But I would note the difference between having to wait a month for treatment and not having any coverage at all. I would say there is a marked difference between the two......

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Pablo
And you really think people in the USA go untreated?


many are.

..or are you saying that the best care available is freely available to all ..and that the poorest of the poor have 100% access to the same health care as the most productive and "substantial"???


We're all equal here ..but some people are more equal than others.


The poorest of poor get treated, yes absolutely. If you deny this, you are just playing politics. In fact in the USA, poor ILLEGAL ALIENS get treated! That's one thing I admire about the Canadian system, at least they have balls to deny non-citizens coverage, or at least charge them. Check out the the bill just passed this week in the US for child universal coverage - even includes non-citizens. Why?

Now you said "best", so if you are including botox injections and free livers for alcoholics, maybe not. But bleeding wounds, head trauma, etc....yes FREE. Or rather you and I pay the bill anyway.

As for the stats - the way health care expenses are summed in the USA seems to be different across the board. Be careful with those numbers.



That's "treatment" ...NOT health CARE.

There is absolutely no equivalency and implications that I can be destitute and get the same care as you ...is just outright disingenuous.

I deal with the useless eaters every day. They have plenty of untreated ailments and have extremely limited treatment options. They may be in some provincial hamlet and the authorized treatment center my be 50 miles away and they may have no means to get there. They can have appointments 9 months apart for an ailment that requires treatment NOW.

Now in terms of emergency care ..sure. Now they get to HAVE to charge us for $1000 worth of FUNNY MONEY since they don't have access to $100 routine and plentiful CHEAP at will care.

So, pay cheap now ..or bolster the privatized para-socialized program for the enhancement of the medical community's market share of your wallet in nearly 100% avoidable costs.

..but you won't get to kick the useless eaters to the curb and fell "distinctive" ..so you pay higher premiums for the privilege.

Makes sense to me

 

[Pablo]

So Gary - you are basically saying our Constitution says everyone should get exactly the same health care? Automatically, no questions asked?

Sorry I'm not paying for the junkie or any other person who doesn't see things my way and straightens their life out.

Please don't tell me I'm dictating how people should live, unless you look in the mirror and somehow don't think you are telling me how I should run my life. And don't give me the fellow man routine, or nonGandhi spiel. If a family or folks are down on their luck (or whatever) and need help YES we should help them - but AGAIN WHY THE [censored] SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE DOING THAT!!!???

You never quite ever answer that question.

 

[sciphi]

The people most in need of health care and regular doctor's visits are the ones least likely to go to the doctor. Instead they end up going to the ER at 10x the cost for something minor like a sprain or a bruise. And you're suffering a heart attack, but can't be seen because somebody else is getting their ache checked out.

What about something like how most colleges have health care, where you go to the clinic and get small medical items for free or reduced cost, and prescriptions are covered by your own insurance or out of your own pocket? Notice how a lot of college kids are sniffling but not outright sick because they go see the clinic before it gets too serious...

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
So Gary - you are basically saying our Constitution says everyone should get exactly the same health care? Automatically, no questions asked?

Sorry I'm not paying for the junkie or any other person who doesn't see things my way and straightens their life out.

Please don't tell me I'm dictating how people should live, unless you look in the mirror and somehow don't think you are telling me how I should run my life. And don't give me the fellow man routine, or nonGandhi spiel. If a family or folks are down on their luck (or whatever) and need help YES we should help them - but AGAIN WHY THE [censored] SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE DOING THAT!!!???

You never quite ever answer that question.


Everytime we discuss this, you always say/imply that lazy junkies and alcoholics are essentially the only people who go to the hospital without health insurance and get cared for. Just blatant demagoguery.

The government should help people because all private charities combined can't.

"YES we should help them" So do it! Buy health insurance for a hardworking, non addicted person who's down on their luck.

 

[Pablo]

I help where I can! But if I don't or don't choose to, I should be forced by the government??

You really did miss my point on junkies/alkies. Reread it for the concept.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
So Gary - you are basically saying our Constitution says everyone should get exactly the same health care? Automatically, no questions asked?


Not in my reality based definition of text based communication (picking up various objects looking for the hidden text that Pablo appears to be reading

).

Why is everything treated in a "flatland" view? Tug-O-War on some dismally simpleton one dimensional plane of "yer eeder wid us or agin us" in apparent "lack of awareness". I suggest that there are many more compass points that some appear to not be able to perceive or imagine ..or at least express.

Harmonics breach the X and Y axis.

 

[GeaugaFletcher]

Consider your last three trips to the DMV to get your license renewed, etc. Consider your last 3 (of innumerable) trips to City Hall and so forth to get a building permit, etc. Consider any dealings with the IRS, Social Security office, Sales Tax office, State licensing bureau of any kind and so on and so on...the only government interaction I've ever enjoyed or found even remotely expedient and effective is that with park rangers. Now tell me that you want the government in charge of providing everybody's health care.

"Oh, it won't be like that, it'll be better!"

Tell us more, Dr. Pangloss!

Moreover, at least there's some recourse with private health care, onerous though it may be. What happens when you get sideways with the government's coverage? Run down to the ballot box to elect a new senator?

A relative of mine is a doctor, a specialist. It's commonly known in her profession that ~30% of your billed charges are actually paid. Roughly 1/3 of her salary goes to malpractice insurance. I have yet to hear a credible explanation of the true roots of our health care problems from _anybody_.

 

[rshaw125]

Maybe the health care is better in Canada maybe not. But there are two things that we enjoy in the US that the Canadians do not. That's freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Say something someone does not like and you'll be hauled before a tribunal.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, surely those are the pitfalls of a private system that is dysfunctional in providing for the needs of the society. I would suggest that your relative deals in terms of "funny money" and that 3X the billed services generating 33% of the billed amount ...is most absolutely AN AMOUNT. It's semantics. Funny how procedures become more routine and numerous when the government subsidy gets reduced ..all endorsed and bolstered as "necessary".

Again, if the para-socialized private sector can't do the job right ..and provide the needs of the society ..then they DESERVE to suffer the pitfalls of government intervention.


The medical community isn't subjected to market forces. They bend over backwards ..and succeed ..at assuring that they get all of the cream of the society ..while billing for the curds.

The win:win scenario with the society being the losers.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
freedom of the press.


ya reckon ?

 

[Gary Allan]

He meant freedom to own the press..

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The medical community isn't subjected to market forces. They bend over backwards ..and succeed ..at assuring that they get all of the cream of the society ..while billing for the curds.


Down here, they lobbied that the costs of malpractice insurance was crippling the "industry".

Got fixed, by passing legislation that to be in any way compensated for malpractice, a permanent disability of at least 15% be incurred. And pain/suffering have been taken out.

So unless through negligence that cause you a 15% permanent disability, go jump. And if they do, they will only be liable for direct costs and rehabilitation.

Guess what this did to medical costs to the customer...not a thing, prices continued to rise.

The medical system kills 10 times as many people as the roads...and they still get pandered to.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
So unless through negligence that cause you a 15% permanent disability, go jump. And if they do, they will only be liable for direct costs and rehabilitation.


Which, under a socialized system, they would be paid for anyway. That is, if you're injured to some 10% total (assumed 100% permanent) ...or 15% 20% ..you would be treated and rehab'd ..

..and if it were malpractice ..you would be too. It seems to eliminate all liability from the doctor..

 

[scoobie]

Just to repeat: I also pay about 30% of my income on income tax, and I earn quite a bit (300,000$ +), because I actually am a Canadian doctor.. No one I know of goes to US for medical care, rather, they might pay to go to India, for a coronary bypass that is cheaper and better than US or Canada, or they can go to India for a joint transplant, but that is rare, and only happens if they would like one RIGHT AWAY, but most people here wait their turn, and get one without undue waiting. If you NEED it right away, you DO GET IT, right away. I get all of my medical care for free, as does everyone else that I know, including expensive cancer care, surgeries, and radiotherapy. Sometimes there is a fundraiser, if someone wants to buy an insulin pump, that might not be covered, but mostly everything is covered, with NO LIMITS. No one ever has to sell their house, or do without anything. One reason GM is broke, is because the Union demanded that GM pay for the health care of the workers. If the government paid, like in other countries, then GM would not be so broke. All our doctors are paid according to a standard schedule, and so there is no profiteering by the doctors, and prices are kept in check and reasonable.