Can someone explain Toyota lug nuts with washers?

[oil_burner]

So I bought a set of aluminum Honda wheels I unfortunately got ripped off on because they were run with loose nuts resulting in slight ovalling of the holes. Through my research the only option is to purchase some hard to source hardened steel press in inserts. Which cost almost as much as the wheel itself. Being 17 years old there I would also have to deal with corrosion and the possibility of having to get even larger holes machined and find these hens teeth inserts.


My idea is just to use Toyota lug nuts with the washer. How does this washer function? Does it take up the clamping force of the lug nut after the taper seat centers the wheel?

My wheels are ball/radius seat and hub centric. I don’t see why I can’t use either mag or Toyota washered nuts. If need be I can drill out the radius seat slightly so the new nut will not bottom against the flange and ensure the washer is loaded. Am I totally off course here?.

 

[dnewton3]

Here is my two cents worth ...

I think you have a general understanding of the concern, but for the sake of others who may not know, I'll say this:

There are typically two types of wheels/hubs for typical civilian use:
- lug centric; these center the wheel to the hub by the nature of the cone shape on the lug nuts and mating cone shape in the lug holes.
- hub centric; these center the wheel to the hub by the nature of the close tolerance fit of the wheel to the hub. These use the "flat" nuts w/ washers.

It is my understanding that you cannot safely mix/match them. The wheel design must match the hub design.

Lug centric wheels are often thicker at the lug mating area, or they are slightly raised/embossed at that area, so as to provide enough thickness for the conical shape to provide sufficient surface area for the torque needed to resist coming loose as well as an area to bear load for the centering function (which can be high stress during turning and braking). Essentially this design required the lug nuts to have two functions; clamping and location.

Hub centric wheels don't need a thick area where the nuts hold them on because the hub hole itself locates the wheel. The lug nuts aren't conical because they do nothing to locate the wheel; they only need to clamp the wheel to the hub. The lug nuts can also take higher torque because it's a linear clamping force with no force exerted "outwards" into the wheel, via the taper of the cone, without damaging the wheel.


If the new (used) wheels have a smaller diameter than the hubs on your car, you could possibly have the wheels machines out to the exact tolerance and shape needed to become hub-centric, but that assumes the hub itself is sufficiently strong enough to carry the load at the hub and not out at the lugs where they were designed to do so, and that the wheel can carry the load at the hub area and not the lug area.

As is often the case in life, what can be done and what should be done are, at times, two different things. I would recommend against trying what you inquire about.


A different option might be to find larger diameter lugs/nuts, and then have the hub holes enlarged and new conical seats turned into the wheel holes. This keeps the loading where it belongs and the larger diameter will refresh the proper mating surface area.

 

[Randol]

There is also a combination of the two, Conical lug nuts or bolts, and a very tight fitting wheel to hub interface. Those are considered hub centric as well. Of the many vehicles I have owned over the years, the only ones to have an OEM flat lug nut interface were Toyotas. They were all alloy wheels. I don't know the engineering reason behind this. Do OEM toyota steel wheels use a flat interface? It seems like years ago many aftermarket alloy wheels had a flat interface. I wonder if there was a concern with aluminum holding up with the tapered seats.

 

[dnewton3]

There is also a combination of the two, Conical lug nuts or bolts, and a very tight fitting wheel to hub interface. Those are considered hub centric as well.

I would disagree ...
Anything with a conical lug nut will be lug-centric; the wheel is located by the lug nuts and carries the load at the lugs.
The fact that the hub has a tight fit does not make it hub centric.

 

[Randol]

I would disagree ...
Anything with a conical lug nut will be lug-centric; the wheel is located by the lug nuts and carries the load at the lugs.
The fact that the hub has a tight fit does not make it hub centric.

No argument here, just pointing out what the industry calls it. I'm not on the design team.

 

[Rand]

I would disagree ...
Anything with a conical lug nut will be lug-centric; the wheel is located by the lug nuts and carries the load at the lugs.
The fact that the hub has a tight fit does not make it hub centric.

I would disagree.
Its generally accepted if the wheel bore matches the hub diameter they are hub centric regardless of the lug nut type.
if the wheel bore does not match they are lug centric.
there can be exceptions.
Maybe
@CapriRacer can lend us his opinion.

Examples: all 5 of my subaru's used "hub centric" wheels and conical lug nuts.
both 2017 and 2019 cherokees used hub centric wheels and conical lug bolts.

etc

Also I think the OP's idea is terrible.

 

[CapriRacer]

I would disagree ...
Anything with a conical lug nut will be lug-centric; the wheel is located by the lug nuts and carries the load at the lugs.
The fact that the hub has a tight fit does not make it hub centric.

I disagree - sort of.

It may be a matter of semantics, but what do people call a wheel that is centered on the hub, but uses cone seat nuts for clamping - meaning the wheel can be pulled off center, but only a very limited amount due to the hub? I've heard the phrase "hub-piloted", and while I think this is technically more accurate, I think this is considered a subgroup of hub-centric.

And just to clear up a misconception: Even lug centric wheels are held on by the clamping force, not the lugs. The lugs (both bolt and stud/nut) do not support any of the load. This is also true of hub centric wheels - that is, the hub does not carry any load.

[[OK, that's not entirely true as the wheel does distort a bit under load so the lugs/hub do carry a bit of the load, but it is so small, it can be neglected when considering the forces involved.]]

 

[SC Maintenance]

I would disagree ...
Anything with a conical lug nut will be lug-centric; the wheel is located by the lug nuts and carries the load at the lugs.
The fact that the hub has a tight fit does not make it hub centric.

Well, I can assure you my conical lug nut Nissan's are hub centric - 66.1mm

My flat lug / washer 2019 Toyota is also hub centric 60.1mm

I also know really well what lug centric looks.

Beyond that - carry on.

 

[Elkins45]

My 2012 xB has steel wheels and conical lug nuts. My 09 xB has alloy wheels and flat lug nuts. Same hub in both cases and both have tight fitting center hubs. My takeaway from this is that the wheel determines the lug type even though both are hub centric.

 

[Marcozi]

I would disagree ...
Anything with a conical lug nut will be lug-centric; the wheel is located by the lug nuts and carries the load at the lugs.
The fact that the hub has a tight fit does not make it hub centric.

BMW wheels are hub centric, AND the lug bolt are conical.

 

[dnewton3]

I accept that there may be some disagreement about the terms.

But I think the general agreement is that the OP's idea is a bad one.

 

[John105]

BMW wheels are hub centric, AND the lug bolt are conical.

Agree with you 100%.

Having purchased many sets of snow tires mounted on rims throughout the years, from that online eTailer that everyone purchases from, the BMW is the "only" vehicle on which they did not provide a new set of lug nuts/bolts, with aftermarket rims. The BMW snow tire rims (ASA) have hub centric inserts as well. The OE lug bolts are used with the aftermarket rims.

Never used them but I purchased brand new OE Toyota wheel locks (made by McGard), and man are they costly (as is everything related to Toyota parts). Luckily eBay to the rescue at $26.

 

[eljefino]

You're way off course. The Toyota lugs have substantial depth on the part past the washer. To make your idea "better" you'd want to machine the lugs to reduce this depth. Now you've got less thread engagement. (You'd have less engagement anyway.) You need eight threads, 12mm worth, to be "safe" on a 12x1.5 stud.

The Toyota washers are also pretty wide. I doubt you have the flat space on the Honda rims but stand to be corrected on that.

Off Topic, I ran Jetta steelies on my Prius with generic lug nuts "for Honda."

I'd write off these wheels as a mistake-- scrap value should be around $15 a wheel. Spending more money on lug nuts will add to your sunk cost fallacy.

 

[oil_burner]

Yea it’s a sunk cost, I spent the last week sanding and refinishing these wheels and it’s only one wheel that has the damage.

I tried knocking a couple out of the junk yard and unfortunately they are the wrong size. None of the aftermarket options are correct either which would mean machine shop time to drill out and press new seats.

I’m wondering if I should just weld a bead on the flattened portion and try to shave/lap it with a spare lug nut which I can cut a couple of slots into.
Damaged insert on the top and a good one is pictured below.

 

[krzyss]

Are we dealing here with conical vs spherical mating surfaces or am I mistaken?

Krzyś

 

[IndyIan]

Assuming there's lots of wheel material under the lugnut, did you try just running the wheel? Tighten it up and go for a spin to see if its centred, rip some turns, hit some bumps, and then check the torque? If you don't think you are anywhere close to pulling the nut through the wheel?
Another barnyard hack would be to put on a soft steel flat washer under the lug nut and just make it conical? Soft steel usually is about the same hardness as cast aluminum.
Before I knew better, I've run conical and spherical lug interface wheels and lug nuts mixed up for years and years, and it didn't seem to matter at all, as steel or AL wheels are much softer than the nuts and seem to get "cold forged" into a shape that works with nut I'm using, just with a bit extra torque on the nut. Some could be turned a bit more during a torque check after a couple days, and after that, they were just normal wheels.

Also the factory Al rims I've had seem over built in the lug/hub area, they aren't going to split from a pulling a conical nut into a slightly enlarged lug hole IMO, but I haven't had any honda AL wheels. You will have to decide what you are comfortable with.

 

[Hohn]

I would disagree ...
Anything with a conical lug nut will be lug-centric; the wheel is located by the lug nuts and carries the load at the lugs.
The fact that the hub has a tight fit does not make it hub centric.

Technically the lugs carry no load-- they only clamp the wheel to the flange. The clamping force they provide ensures that the load is carried by the frictional contact between wheel and hub.

This is true of both hub-centric and lug centric designs. In both designs, the lugs have no shear load whatsoever.

The distinguishing feature between them is what provides the most concentricity to ensure the wheel axis is as close to concentric with the hub axis as possible. In a hub-centric design, the lugs have less concentricity control than the hubs do. In a lug-centric design, the lugs have more concentricity control than the hubs do.

Sometimes a lug-centric design will have tapered nuts to try to center the lug within the wheel hole. But this isn't what makes them lug centric. On the contrary, being lug-centric is what makes them have the tapered nuts. Sometimes it's conical. Sometimes its spherical. Sometimes it has a "bushing" type extension that reaches into the lug bore. None of these are evidence per se of being lug-centric.

Hub rings can make any wheel hub-centric.