Brazil Plane Crash

So much for a previous person saying you can fly into severe ice and not even be aware of it. They flew into severe ice and were aware of it.

I don’t see anything about them requesting an altitude change as soon as they became aware they were flying in severe ice.

I still haven’t read anything about that crash that would prevent me from flying on an ATR.
 
Just a civilian pilot said:
So much for a previous person saying you can fly into severe ice and not even be aware of it. They flew into severe ice and were aware of it.

I don’t see anything about them requesting an altitude change as soon as they became aware they were flying in severe ice.

I still haven’t read anything about that crash that would prevent me from flying on an ATR.
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  • "If not possible to accelerate and maintain the IAS above the ICING BUG + 30 kt. (with flaps at 0°) or IAS above the ICING BUG (with flaps at 15°) the following procedures were prescribed:
  • select LOW BANK mode;
  • escape from icing condition; and
  • notify ATC (Air Traffic Control)."
Yes, fly to escape icing conditions relying on TCAS, THEN notify ATC.
 
Even if there was no failure with the deicing system, you don’t stay at the same altitude if you are picking up severe ice ( or moderate ). No aircraft, especially planes with boots, can handle prolonged periods of flying in severe ice.

Descending will also give you more speed if the ice was severe enough to slow the aircraft down in cruise plus hopefully exit the severe ice.

That aircraft has a lot more cockpit warnings to advise pilots of ice than any aircraft I have ever flown.

If I was flying and received an indication that the weather radar ( at night or route during day has convective activity ) or anti ice wasn’t working properly, I would refuse to continue and return to where I just took off from.

The crew had warnings about “ low cruise speed” , “ degraded performance” and “ increase speed “ for over 2 minutes ( 135 seconds ) yet stayed at the same altitude.

I don’t need to wait for the final report for me to understand what happened.


  • 15:15:42 - a single chime was heard in the cockpit. Subsequently, the crew commented on the occurrence of an AIRFRAME DE-ICING Fault, and that they would turn it off;
 
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Fighter pilots, on the other hand...:ROFLMAO:
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It is said that Navy Fighter Pilots are not capable for feelings of love, admiration, and affection.

This is not true. Those feelings just do not involve anyone else! 😅

Note: I do not know Astro14. I may have walked by him or met him in San Diego, Bethesda, Point Mugu NAS (yes it really exists, my detailer, an East Coaster thought I was making that up), but from his two sentence career summary I know he’s really the best of the best. He knows and has experienced and studied things that someone who didn’t follow his career path can’t understand—not just can’t understand the answer, can’t understand the question, or the premise of the question.

Sounds trite but thank you for your service Astro14, including those two tours (?) as instructor, where the pilot trying to kill you is sitting next to you.
 
YK7 said:
How's that are you qualified as an investigator...never heard that before a Navy pilot. I maybe wrong but try to explain?
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Who would be better qualified?

Knows the aircraft, procedures, the training, accident board will have other experts like Flight Surgeons to review certain human factors, etc.

No substitute for real world experience—
 
The minimum speed ( “ icing bug” speed ) in icing conditions was 165, but the minimum speed they should have been flying at was 195 ( severe icing checklist….” Icing bug speed + 30 “ ) knots in severe icing conditions. They knew they were in severe ice but allowed the speed to get too low.

Picking my way through that report.
 
NorthstarredToyota said:
The Traumahawk!

Didn’t the wing surface metal tend to “oil can” and change the shape of the wing?
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An aircraft wing is designed to flex but the shape of the wing remains constant.

Here are some links explaining the design and stress/loads analysis of an aircraft wing.

https://aerotoolbox.com/wing-structural-design/

https://eaglepubs.erau.edu/introductiontoaerospaceflightvehicles/chapter/aerospace-structures/

Aeroelasticity:

https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/serve.../ac26487d-aea0-4962-bf70-163bdd84eeab/content
 
100% pilot error IMHO.

I don't mean to be too harsh but if a pilot was in the sim upgrading to Captain ( command upgrade sim scenario ) and was given a flight plan and weather reports warning about severe ice and decided to go anyways, that would be considered poor judgment.

Making the decision to operate the flight anyways and receive an alert ( caution ) that there was a problem with the wing/tail deice system versus and not turn around ( QRH checklist says avoid icing conditions if you get that message ) would be a failure in the sim, especially when a severe ice SIGMET has been issued.

Several mistakes after that made the situation worse like not following the ATR QRH severe ice checklist ( they knew they were in severe ice ) which tells pilots to add MCT ( max continous power ), descend and maintain an extra 30 knots to avoid stalling.

There is enough information in the preliminary report to understand what happened.

Just last week, while flying to the Caribbean, we had a failure message with the weather radar ( thunderstorms in the forecast and night flight coming back ) and I told the FO if it doesn't go away, we are turning around and heading back but it was only a 2 minute temporary problem so we continued.
 
I’ve declared an emergency twice in my 21 year airline career. Both for severe icing in the Saab 340 turboprop. Both times we had to start a decent to maintain the minimum speed for icing conditions.

Thankfully the Saab 340 handles ice quite well. Although, you’d get a loud, eerie howling sound from ice build-up, and then the intermittent crashing of ice into the fuselage as the prop de-ice system shed chunks of ice.
 
E365 said:
I’ve declared an emergency twice in my 21 year airline career. Both for severe icing in the Saab 340 turboprop. Both times we had to start a decent to maintain the minimum speed for icing conditions.

Thankfully the Saab 340 handles ice quite well. Although, you’d get a loud, eerie howling sound from ice build-up, and then the intermittent crashing of ice into the fuselage as the prop de-ice system shed chunks of ice.
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I don’t do training ( used to ) but if I did, I would emphasize knowing when it’s time to declare an emergency ( Pan, Pan, Pan, or Mayday three times outside the U.S or Canada to make sure ATC is 100% clear ) without hesitation when appropriate and do what you need to do to ensure the safety of the flight is protected.

Even though Airbus says 5 MM or more is severe, you don’t notice it performance wise ( tail isn’t even heated ).
 
Severe icing was a contributing factor but pilot error was the cause - 100%.

Some will argue that the ATR doesn’t tolerate ice as well as other aircraft but ATR went back to the drawing board after those early accidents involving ice and provided pilots with cockpit alerts to warn them about performance issues in ice and updated procedures aka severe ice checklists to be followed ( QRH ) when flying in severe ice.

Making the decision to fly into an area ( and altitude range ) of severe ice and fly at an altitude that had severe ice forecast was dangerous.

I heard a former NTSB person say she would never fly on an ATR but I strongly disagree with her.

I would fly on an ATR 72 no problem.
 
Just a civilian pilot said:
I heard a former NTSB person say she would never fly on an ATR but I strongly disagree with her.

I would fly on an ATR 72 no problem.
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If I'm not mistaken, after the American Eagle Flight 4184 crash in Roselawn, Indiana, didn't American decide to move their entire ATR fleet to service warmer southern locations, as to reduce the possibility of encountering icing?

I know icing can still occur in warm climates at altitude, but the chances are lower than the Midwest during the Winter seasons. Ice does appear to be a bigger problem with the ATR than most other passenger aircraft.

I wouldn't have a problem flying on one either....... From Las Vegas to San Diego at the end of June.
 
billt460 said:
If I'm not mistaken, after the American Eagle Flight 4184 crash in Roselawn, Indiana, didn't American decide to move their entire ATR fleet to service warmer southern locations, as to reduce the possibility of encountering icing?

I know icing can still occur in warm climates at altitude, but the chances are lower than the Midwest during the Winter seasons. Ice does appear to be a bigger problem with the ATR than most other passenger aircraft.

I wouldn't have a problem flying on one either....... From Las Vegas to San Diego at the end of June.
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Not sure why they sent them south but I know I would have no hesitation flying on one anywhere on the planet provided the pilots know what they are doing.

A previous company that I flew for operates ATR aircraft currently ( Canada has worst winter weather than down south ) up here in Canada.

As per previous nervous pilot discussions, it’s not the plane ( Airbus , Boeing, ATR ) that concerns me, it’s who is flying it. Nervous passengers should be concerned about experienced pilots behind the controls, and proper training.

Las Vegas…..too dangerous…..risk of sand storms 🙂

My friend is Captain on the ATR with First Air.

Edit: 4 Canadian airlines operate ATR aircraft.

Haven’t read any plans about moving them down south 🤔

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Air

https://canadiannorth.com/about/our-fleet/

https://www.calmair.com/our-fleet

https://www.northstarair.ca/article/fleet-1179.asp

https://www.atr-aircraft.com/presspost/atr-72-500-gets-certification-to-operate-in-canada/
 
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