Terrifying given all the safety measures built into planes.
Brazil Plane Crash
- Thread starter Danno
- Start date
Extremely horrific and sad. Stall?
And what safety measures would those be?
This airplane was spinning.
That happens when a crew loses control.
Which suggests a failure in the ultimate safety measure- a capable, trained, and alert crew on the flight deck.
Crew training
Aircraft pilot assists
Improved maintenance programs
Better built and more powerful engines.
Something failed in all these improvements over the years of hard knocks.
Kestas
Staff member
That is always my initial question. It seems that more airplane mishaps are from human error than mechanical failure.
I am trying to figure out what you are trying to say. That something went wrong?
I think we all came to the conclusion that something went wrong.
It is the weakest link.
Based on previous ATR-72 incidents, video evidence, and meteorological conditions, we can say that the first suspect is icing. But, the investigation will show the cause.
At a casual listen, it sounded like a feathered prop under power. There is a very distinct sound they make, and it sure sounded that way.
Will see. Brazilians are good at this. They will figure it out.
I'm not jumping to conclusions, but one thing that I can't help but remember is the ATR-72 crash many years ago in Roselawn, Indiana. That was at least partially due to icing and deficiencies in the aircraft's design for dealing with it. They did a great deal of work and testing on the ATR-72 to correct those deficiencies and it has had a pretty good safety record since then, as far as I can see. Today's crash appears to be on an overcast day with rain. It certainly is something to look at in the investigation.
Prayers up for the victims and their families, including those on the ground.
Prayers up for the victims and their families, including those on the ground.
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2024
- Messages
- 155
So terrible. I really hate stories like this. They show how no matter how advanced safety and technology gets, very tragic things still happen sometimes.
He was replying to Astro14's Question above
My initial thought was pilot error(s), the will figure it out eventually.
Likewise, I feel awful. And you are 100% correct tragic accidents will continue to happen even with our finest advancements.
But I'd say that technology can reduce the risk immensely. Despite Boeing's fall from grace lately, they were among the pioneers of truly safe all weather aircraft. Capable and powerful jets that fly above the weather, have fully heated leading edges that melt ice, and engines that shed ice from the core. Not to mention climb rates that get through or above the weather much faster than turboprops.
Turboprops can be excellent aircraft with good safety records, but they often operate at icing altitudes, can be subject to prop control issues, prop icing and insufficient power to overcome the loss of lift ice can cause.
No idea what caused this crash. Just thinking aloud about jets vs props
I promise that a mechanical failure preceded the loss of control.
The ATR-72 doesn’t have many of the systems that engineers have promised will improve safety.
Let’s all keep in mind that MCAS, the system that caused the two 737 Max crashes, was built to “increase safety”.
It failed. The crew did not respond correctly. The planes crashed.
Systems fail - even systems that purport to be “pilot assists” and “improve safety”.
The ATR-72 doesn’t have many of the systems that engineers have promised will improve safety.
Let’s all keep in mind that MCAS, the system that caused the two 737 Max crashes, was built to “increase safety”.
It failed. The crew did not respond correctly. The planes crashed.
Systems fail - even systems that purport to be “pilot assists” and “improve safety”.
...and AA decided that the ATRs and midwest winter weather were not a good combination so they shipped the fleet to San Juan and ran an island hub using them from SJU. I recall flying to and from SJU fifteen or so years ago and there were swarms of AA contractor flown ATRs on one of the concourses with flights to all of the surrounding islands with mostly A300s operating the flights from the mainland to SJU.
That is almost always my first thought. We had de-ice boots fail on our PC-12, the sequence of events nearly ended in disaster. The thing that many PC-12 pilots don't know is that the engine exhaust heats the inboard RH wing area, but not the LH. The loss of control due to asymmetric ice buildup is impossible to deal with. This same heat on the RH wing prevents any fuel icing in that wing. Which can lead to the LH wing's fuel-pickup icing up, and the engine's fuel return FILLING UP the LH wing. Also a no-win situation.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2021
- Messages
- 1,220
I have flown thousands of hours in Turbo Props and they are perfectly safe, even when operating in icing conditions.
I never experienced any issues flying Turbo Props in icing conditions.
Very interested to see what the cause of that ATR crash was.
A general comment about Turbo Props in icing conditions even if icing conditions end up playing a role in this crash.
I never experienced any issues flying Turbo Props in icing conditions.
Very interested to see what the cause of that ATR crash was.
A general comment about Turbo Props in icing conditions even if icing conditions end up playing a role in this crash.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2024
- Messages
- 21
Severe icing can happen very quickly and catch a crew not used to dealing with it off-guard. Say what you will but a turboprop with pneumatic boots can't deal with it as well as a jet with a heated wing. With that said, everyone thought Colgan 3407 was some kind of icing event but it turned out to be pure crew incompetence with a possible crew fatigue element built in. As alluded to earlier here, the ATR does have a history with icing, though.
South American Airlines are well known for not requiring as many hours to get a commercial certificate, nor having as thorough or rigorous maintenance schedules. Didn't a Peruvian airline crash on final approach a couple of years ago? I don't know which Peruvian airline it was but one supposedly purchased 5 Airbus A318's in great shape from an American carrier only to crash three of them within three years.
Similar threads
