Who are you responding to? I will go back and look, but my comments were very specific to the ATR-72.
Brazil Plane Crash
- Thread starter Danno
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Autopilot + severe icing conditions apparently can cause really bad, unrecoverable things to happen. I’m not a pilot, but turboprops and winter conditions always struck me as a little dangerous. The American Eagle crash in 1994 was also an ATR-72.
The major US airlines sent them all down south, to Puerto Rico and similar places. Here at CVG, Comair (later Delta Connections) lost all their turboprops & replaced them with regional jets.
They will be looking at icing, I am sure, but I am not yet convinced that was the cause.
That must have been horrifying for all involved; it almost looked like crashing in slow motion.
When I was a younger man, I spent a lot of time punching holes in the sky with RC aircraft. I had one particular plane that was prone to the flat spin. There was just something about the aerodynamic shape and balance of the craft. I can't explain it. One day, the plane entered the spin and the engine flamed out. At that point, despite still having radio control of the craft, I was just a bystander, because no amount of sawing away at the controls had any effect. I figure there was not enough air moving over the control surfaces. The spin was remarkably flat, and relatively slow. The craft landed in a bush, which cushioned impact, and there was only minimal damage. It spooked the hell out of me, though.
When I was a younger man, I spent a lot of time punching holes in the sky with RC aircraft. I had one particular plane that was prone to the flat spin. There was just something about the aerodynamic shape and balance of the craft. I can't explain it. One day, the plane entered the spin and the engine flamed out. At that point, despite still having radio control of the craft, I was just a bystander, because no amount of sawing away at the controls had any effect. I figure there was not enough air moving over the control surfaces. The spin was remarkably flat, and relatively slow. The craft landed in a bush, which cushioned impact, and there was only minimal damage. It spooked the hell out of me, though.
I suspect your CG in that RC aircraft was a bit too far aft.
But to your point about this crash - yes, for about a minute, everyone on board likely knew that the airplane was spinning, and that they weren’t going to make it.
Truly terrifying.
edyvw
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Other pilots reported icing. But, as always, probably it will be chain of events. I think combination of reports of icing and known issues that ATR72 has when icing happens, leads everyone to first speculate with that.
Luckily, Brazilians are good with this stuff so we will find out eventually.
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I never said, or implied, Turbo Props can fly into severe icing with no problems. I said they can safely fly in icing conditions. Anyone with flying experience would understand the difference.
Are you a commercial pilot?
No aircraft, not even commercial airline jet aircraft, are certified to operate in severe icing conditions ( Airbus says severe is 5 MM of ice ) and need to exit, or avoid, the area. Most well airlines have their own policies regarding operating when severe ice is reported ( we have to avoid the area and can only take off and land in light freezing rain ).
If it’s true this plane flew into severe icing conditions ( apparently a SIGMET was issued warning about severe icing ) , sorry, you would not be caught off guard during DAYLIGHT if you ignored the SIGMET and flew into it due to performance reasons and visual indications ( daylight ). The side windows would start indicating the presence of ice because portions are unheated plus ATR ( due to its history, they don’t want to repeat ) had unique cockpit indications/warnings that clearly indicate to pilots they are in severe icing and apply the severe icing procedures.
In a place like Brazil, unless terrain is an issue, declare and emergency ASAP and descend ( they have TCAS ) even before cleared to get into warm air. ATR clearly states what the minimum clean speed must be during severe ice and it apparently automatically appears on the pilots airspeed indicator when severe ice is detected.
If there was severe ice , hard to believe other flights never reported it to ATC so they could have warned this flight.
Very curious about this crash but I doubt there was anything wrong with the plane ( no design flaw ) and possibly nothing wrong with anything else.
I don’t get it, the ATR has a stick shaker, and stick pusher apparently.
How did it end up stalling?
No clue on this one.
That’s what I am saying based on experience and flying in icing conditions.
https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/atr/atr-cold-weather-operations.pdf
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Just checked, no high terrain between the two airports.
Lowest safe altitude was 6000
Lowest safe altitude was 6000
So you submit pilot error over mechanical failure?
Not that I'm qualified to analyze the video , but it looks like a mechanical failure with no effort to correct it . Surely when you are in a flat spin you can do something other than just fall out of the sky ? Even if it doesn't work you would see some kind of reaction . It just seemed to fall vertically for a long time . I guess we'll find out at some point .
I am not a pilot, but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. Can someone explain to me why increasing power on the port engine and decreasing the starboard would not have given them a chance? Maybe that combined with bringing the nose down? Anyone wonder why I am a white knuckle flyer?
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Because engine power has nothing to do with fact they had stalled, and got into a spin.
Rudder, not differential power, is used to stop the spin rotation.
Not sure how that happened given the ample warning provided by the stick shaker, and pusher.
Once stalled, and in a spin, adding power ( and differential power will just make things worse ) won't help until the rotation is stopped ( rudder ) and stall broken ( lower the nose ).
That said, I have zero clue about the stall characteristics of the ATR 72 ( how hard it is to recover once stalled ).
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Try not to be afraid of flying despite the fantastic job the media does trying to scare people.
On my top ten list of things that concern me in the world , flying on planes isn't even on that list ( neither is not changing my oil every 3000 miles lol ).
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This happened to a city close to where i live.
They are talking a lot about icing and stall , i don't know a lot about aircrafts. But we will know this after they remove the bodies, there was 62 passengers, no one survived (obviously). They have recovered 30 bodies so far.
They are talking a lot about icing and stall , i don't know a lot about aircrafts. But we will know this after they remove the bodies, there was 62 passengers, no one survived (obviously). They have recovered 30 bodies so far.
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My condolences to the victims families, and Brazil.
Hopefully, families will soon get an explanation as to what the cause was.
RIP.
Thank you!
The plane crashed in a residential area, in a house backyard, the owner and family was inside and said he " saw the plane exploding in his garage". Luckily no one was hurt outside the crash.
I'm not a pilot, but I don't think I agree with this. A flat spin puts almost no air over the control surfaces unless the engine is pushing air.
That relates to what I was asking. The analyst said the control surfaces were not working because of no air flow. So isn't getting the spin stopped and the nose down the best chance? It was sickening watching it spin hopelessly almost straight down.
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The aircraft stalled, then went into a spin.
Exceeding the stall AOA is what caused it to stall, not lack of power.
You could have full power with the nose too high ( AOA ) and it can stall. You could have the power completely at idle ( descent on jets....turbo props have much more drag and do not descend at idle during en route descents normally ) and not stall if the nose is lowered to maintain speed.
So, according to your understanding of flying, how is the plane capable of flying ( not stalled ) with idle power and the "engine not pushing any air" like they all do during descent?
All the power in the world will not "push air over the wings" to make it fly ( lift ) until the stall AOA is lowered.
Go watch the F14 crash where the pilot loses control when they apply max after burner when flying too slow during a carrier landing.
Lots of air ( thrust ) was coming out of both engines.
The plane crashed.
