Brake Pads - with good initial bite

[Carmudgeon]

I actually settled on epad but hard to come by here … and Ended up with TRW Ultra - I think they are similar if not same

Thank you all

TRW is now under the ZF umbrella. Textar is part of TMD Friction, along with Mintex, Pagid, and others. Not the same, but both shooting for the same market segment.

I got my ePads from NAPA, under one of their many subsidiary lines, but it doesn't appear they stock them any longer.

FCP carries both TRW Ultra and Textar ePad, and FWIW, they tout a "lifetime" guarantee.

I've never tried Akebonos, but their reputed initial bite, or lack thereof, is what steered me away. But I can't imagine they're any worse in that respect than the old PBR/Axxis/whatever Metal Masters. Nothing to snap one out of cold morning grogginess like approaching an intersection and realizing that the brakes won't obey. Not desirable in what was ostensibly a street, not track, pad, but they did fix it with the Ultimates.

 

[ripcord]

Question, and I'm not trying to be snarky, with computer controlled antilock brakes, what correlation is there between "bite", friction coefficient, ect, and 60 to zero stopping distances?

 

[zray1]

Question, and I'm not trying to be snarky, with computer controlled antilock brakes, what correlation is there between "bite", friction coefficient, ect, and 60 to zero stopping distances?

ABS brakes do not make all pads equal. A pad must still provide enough friction to slow the rotors. Otherwise a slab of cardboard would suffice.

A good pad composition is a compromise between too much friction that ends up wearing out the rotors vs not enough friction that gives poor stopping performance.

Then add to the complexity the need for a rotor dust that is hard to see and you will see that there’s no one pad formula that will please everyone.

In comparison, race pads are easy to design. Just have the pad and rotor combination last out the race and you are done.

Z

PS For my needs I’d rather put up with more visible dust and somewhat less rotor and pad life and be able to stop the car in less distance. Others have different priorities.

 

[ripcord]

That doesn't fully answer my question though. Since 99% of cars and light trucks are hydraulically capable of locking up the brakes regardless of variations in pad material, and the ABS system takes care of modulating the brakes in a panic stop, how does it matter if the pedal pressure required is greater or lesser in terms of total stopping distances?

 

[zray1]

Regardless of the ABS , and before the ABS comes into action, It will take longer to lock up the brakes if the pad material is not optimal. I can’t explain it any better than that .

Your comments indicate you might believe the ABS comes into play instantly, which it does not

Z

 

[ctechbob]

For the average driver, they cannot outbrake a good abs system. For someone with some experiance who knows where ABS will kick in and can ride right on the edge of that moment, you can usually outbrake ABS.

If you're talking just slamming the pedal and letting ABS do its thing, pad material won't much matter so long as it is sufficient to get the wheel to lockup.

If you're more experianced, a good pad can make it easier to modulate to that point before ABS takes over, but it won't necessarily have any impact on stopping distance. I can take 2 different pads and end up with much the same distance, but I'll like one more than the other or it will be easier for me to drive with.

This is ignoring overheating, repetative stops, cold performance, etc.

 

[zray1]

Perhaps a distinction is needed between average drivers and good drivers.

As stated above, an experienced driver can out brake the ABS. That alone should be all the motivation needed to learn how to use a cars brakes to achieve the shortest possible stopping distance.

Trouble is, do a majority of people care to achieve that status ?

Or will they just slam on the brakes and let the ABS do the math.

Z

 

[ripcord]

One study I read claimed that under 5 percent of drivers can exceed the performance of ABS. This was probably 20 years ago so newer cars' ABS are probably even better.

 

[zray1]

One study I read claimed that under 5 percent of drivers can exceed the performance of ABS. This was probably 20 years ago so newer cars' ABS are probably even better.

I believe it. But only because people can’t be bothered to learn a skill.

Z

 

[Ndx]

For the average driver, they cannot outbrake a good abs system. For someone with some experiance who knows where ABS will kick in and can ride right on the edge of that moment, you can usually outbrake ABS.

If you're talking just slamming the pedal and letting ABS do its thing, pad material won't much matter so long as it is sufficient to get the wheel to lockup.

If you're more experianced, a good pad can make it easier to modulate to that point before ABS takes over, but it won't necessarily have any impact on stopping distance. I can take 2 different pads and end up with much the same distance, but I'll like one more than the other or it will be easier for me to drive with.

This is ignoring overheating, repetative stops, cold performance, etc.

This is me … don’t care about dust ….
Initial bite is must … if someone never experienced that is hard to understand.

I still haven’t bought pads haha… I will just pull the trigger on Pagid or Jurid and not over think this…

 

[GMBoy]

Raybestos Element 3 EHT pads - best I've used! Good grip and low dust.

 

[MParr]

Any top shelf semi-metallic.

 

[930.engineering]

Stay away then from Ferodo, PFC etc. Those are dual street/track or track or race pads. They will make noise cold.
Best bet is ATE, Jurid, Pagid and Textar.

That's just not correct.
Ferodo Premier and Ferodo Thermo Quiet are quality stock replacements.

Brake Pads | Ferodo

www.ferodo.com

Ferodo DS Performance is a mildly sportier but still ECE R90 compliant pad.
It is quiet, it provides excellent cold bite, very good modulation at any temp
(which no EBC does). Performance Friction Z rated quite similar to Ferodo DS
Performance. If you want a 'better' pad without downsides, this is the go to!
.

 

[edyvw]

That's just not correct.
Ferodo Premier and Ferodo Thermo Quiet are quality stock replacements.

Brake Pads | Ferodo

www.ferodo.com

Ferodo DS Performance is a mildly sportier but still ECE R90 compliant pad.
It is quiet, it provides excellent cold bite, very good modulation at any temp
(which no EBC does). Performance Friction Z rated quite similar to Ferodo DS
Performance. If you want a 'better' pad without downsides, this is the go to!
.

Ferodo does not have that line up in the US. DS2500 is what they mostly offer and very rare, generic replacement.
DS2500 are very popular among track crowd here. But it is not best option for this vehicle and I am not sure they make it for 7 series.
DS2500 makes noise while cold, need some temperature to provide maximum performance. On some vehicles they are known to “eat” paint around wheels, though did not see on European vehicles.

 

[930.engineering]

.
Isn't it better then to say 'Ferodo DS2500' instead of just saying 'Ferodo'?
I'm aware of the dowsides of DS2500 pads and that's why I didn't suggest
using them.
Well, yes, the differing availability of products in NA vs Europe seems being
a repeated issue that we simply have to deal with. Same with brakes pads as
with oils and many other things.
.

 

[edyvw]

.
Isn't it better then to say 'Ferodo DS2500' instead of just saying 'Ferodo'?
I'm aware of the dowsides of DS2500 pads and that's why I didn't suggest
using them.
Well, yes, the differing availability of products in NA vs Europe seems being
a repeated issue that we simply have to deal with. Same with brakes pads as
with oils and many other things.
.

I was just referring to Ferodo as pretty much DS2500 is only readily available product. DS3000 is available through some special orders but that pad obliterates paint behind wheels regardless of vehicle brand. Most European shops focus on Pagid RSL in that category, Hawk DTC or PFC.
I have seen some generic Ferodo available, but price or lack of it, doesn’t indicate they overcame their downfall of several decades.

 

[Ndx]

.
Isn't it better then to say 'Ferodo DS2500' instead of just saying 'Ferodo'?
I'm aware of the dowsides of DS2500 pads and that's why I didn't suggest
using them.
Well, yes, the differing availability of products in NA vs Europe seems being
a repeated issue that we simply have to deal with. Same with brakes pads as
with oils and many other things.
.

What is your take guys on

Ferodo - Premier Eco Friction
Found some stock
FF rated for what it’s worth


Or with immediate stock available Raybestos Element 3

 

[wings&wheels]

.
Isn't it better then to say 'Ferodo DS2500' instead of just saying 'Ferodo'?
I'm aware of the dowsides of DS2500 pads and that's why I didn't suggest
using them.
Well, yes, the differing availability of products in NA vs Europe seems being
a repeated issue that we simply have to deal with. Same with brakes pads as
with oils and many other things.
.

To answer the original question; Textar or Ferodo here on BMW's, but the Ferodo was 'back in the day', as opposed to what was available now.

I do want to hear 930's expanded thoughts on EBC? I have used EBC Greenstuff on some niche applications and have been very happy....but again niche old British stuff.

 

[Ndx]

Thx again!

Ended up ordering Hella Pagid pads weirdly they are FE rated apparently it’s same as OE.

Thank you

 

[930.engineering]

What is your take guys on

Ferodo - Premier Eco Friction
Found some stock
FF rated for what it’s worth

Or with immediate stock available Raybestos Element 3

I do know nothing about those Raybestos to be honest.
I do know for certain though that Ferodo Premier are excellent
in both daily driving and even under heavier conditions.
Since Ferodo is an OEM I suspect Ferodo Premier is actually just
an OE compound as used by VW, Audi, BMW and perhaps other
manufacturers.

I do want to hear 930's expanded thoughts on EBC? I have used EBC Greenstuff on some niche applications and have been very happy....but again niche old British stuff.

It might be different on niche applications, but my own experiences
as well as others' experiences with EBC black, green and red in short:
overly temperature-dependent friction (cold: worse than OE, Ferodo
etc., warm: more bite than OE, Ferodo etc., hot: weaker than OE and
Ferodo etc., early fading particularly with black and green). Next issue
is unsticking pad compound from the backing plate due to rust which
I experienced myself as well as others who. I've never seen that happen
with any OE pad or one from a reputable company. Third, not a single
car manufacturer uses EBC on his cars (thus EBC lacks experience with
OE standards). Lastly, virtually no reputable racing team uses EBC. On
track you'll mainly see Pagid, Ferodo, CL, PFC, Endless - rarely any EBC.
EBC yellow and up obviously perform better when hot, but also weaker
when cold. And the quality issues remain the same.
Other experiences will differ, but these are mine and those of other guys
I know in person.
.