Brake fluid change!??

[edyvw]

I think he means it's a money grab because the dealers can charge for the labor. The cost of the fluid is nothing compared to the labor. I think Mercedes is about $200-$300 for a brake fluid flush and they recommend it as standard maintenance every 2 years. The $15 in fluid is nothing compared to the labor charge.

2 year change among European manufacturers is coming from the fact that in Europe there is no way to pass technical inspaction with 2 year old fluid.
Labor does not have anything to do with the fact that it needs to be done.

 

[Wolf359]

2 year change among European manufacturers is coming from the fact that in Europe there is no way to pass technical inspaction with 2 year old fluid.
Labor does not have anything to do with the fact that it needs to be done.

So it's just a money grab in the US and not Europe? No such requirements exist in the US.

 

[edyvw]

So it's just a money grab in the US and not Europe? No such requirements exist in the US.

Question should be why not? European manufacturers are driven by their organizational culture, not American. Asian manufacturers have same requirement in Europe.
In Europe they charge brake fluid change too. How much? Probably in Germany is more expensive than in some parts of US, and vice versa.

 

[DGXR]

I flush my brake systems every 4-5 years. It's easy and the fluid is cheap. Brake fluid absorbs moisture so you need to get the old stuff out of the system once in a while.

 

[The Critic]

2 year change among European manufacturers is coming from the fact that in Europe there is no way to pass technical inspaction with 2 year old fluid.
Labor does not have anything to do with the fact that it needs to be done.

There is definitely value in replacing brake fluid. But in the absence of state testing or warranty requirements, I have not seen any vehicle accident or component failure data to support some of the intervals being suggested.

 

[edyvw]

There is definitely value in replacing brake fluid. But in the absence of state testing or warranty requirements, I have not seen any vehicle accident or component failure data to support some of the intervals being suggested.

I think evidence is not hard to find. Quick search on Google Scholar resulted in 17,900 results related to brake fluid overheating.
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/epdf/10.1063/5.0003747
Here in CO actually you might stumble on accident related to it, in Florida probably not.
States are not doing that not bcs. DOT's do not think it should not, but bcs. of nature of legal system. OK was sued some time ago by owner of vehicle that passed inspection, and state lost. After that no state is willing to get into that business. In Europe, that would be pretty much impossible to do.

 

[MasterSolenoid]

My 2002 Ford Ranger, I change the Brake Fluid every two years.
Fluid is cheap and my labor is free.

After 18 years, still original front Calipers and rear Wheel Cylinders.

 

[2EHA]

So it's just a money grab in the US and not Europe? No such requirements exist in the US.

old BMWs had brake fluid change reminder lights for most markets, they just consider it important

 

[The Critic]

I think evidence is not hard to find. Quick search on Google Scholar resulted in 17,900 results related to brake fluid overheating.
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/epdf/10.1063/5.0003747
Here in CO actually you might stumble on accident related to it, in Florida probably not.
States are not doing that not bcs. DOT's do not think it should not, but bcs. of nature of legal system. OK was sued some time ago by owner of vehicle that passed inspection, and state lost. After that no state is willing to get into that business. In Europe, that would be pretty much impossible to do.

I don't think we are talking about the same type of data. I think we are in agreement about the technical benefits and technical evidence of regular brake fluid replacement.
I was referring to data showing vehicle accidents or actual component failure data resulting from lack of brake fluid changes.

 

[edyvw]

I don't think we are talking about the same type of data. I think we are in agreement about the technical benefits and technical evidence of regular brake fluid replacement.
I was referring to data showing vehicle accidents or actual component failure data resulting from lack of brake fluid changes.

My point is that one of these papers is going to provide you that data or cite source that has that data. Getting data like that requires time and patience, if we talk about real data and not anecdotal evidence. I have no doubt that there you will find evidence where aging brake fluid led to boiling or failure of certain component.
Anecdotally, yes I know several instances of people having issues with boiling brake fluid when going down mountain passes.

 

[tbm3fan]

Every two years on all my cars

 

[JHZR2]

It fully mixes in a pretty short time. Brownian motion. You simply can't stop it from mixing fully. You can use test strips in the reservoir to demonstrate.

Yep, it's like ice melting in a bottle of coke - it's going to fully mix and not just sit in a blob of water and layer of coke. All the molecules in the fluid are constantly blipping around a tiny little bit. It's constant and makes it mix fully over time. Driving speeds it up a lot because the reservoir and the piston chambers are in direct contact, then the fluid pressure churns it more.

Except that there’s a lot more restriction and a more tortuous path than the ice cube in coke. One can verge on a well mixed assumption and one can’t.

Replacement of the fluid in the reservoir is a great idea. I’ve seen lots of nasty fluid in there. My Honda cars seem the worse, they seem to build up foul films in 2-3 years. My old euro cars don’t.

But anytime the fluid is aged, and flushed properly (clean and replace the fluid in the reservoir first), you see darker fluid come out for a while before the lighter new fluid. That’s confirmation that it is not mixing well in the hard lines and hoses. And theyre the most important locations for getting degraded or wet fluid out. Calipers themselves hold a decent amount of fluid in the chambers too...

 

[Oro_O]

But anytime the fluid is aged, and flushed properly (clean and replace the fluid in the reservoir first), you see darker fluid come out for a while before the lighter new fluid. That’s confirmation that it is not mixing well in the hard lines and hoses. And theyre the most important locations for getting degraded or wet fluid out. Calipers themselves hold a decent amount of fluid in the chambers too...

If you do it immediately, this is true. If the system is working properly, it's going to mix fully over time. It's not going to do it with the car sitting, but it will with driving when the reservoir and the MC blend, which then blends with the lines, which then blends with the calipers...

This is basic physics; if you aren't familiar with "Brownian motion" or fluid dynamics, check it out. It works.

 

[pezzy84]

2 year change among European manufacturers is coming from the fact that in Europe there is no way to pass technical inspaction with 2 year old fluid.
Labor does not have anything to do with the fact that it needs to be done.

This is interesting to know and now makes sense why my VW's and Mercedes were all strictly 2 years - well minus the possible misprint in my '16 owners manual that gives you 3 years first go around then every 2 years after.

 

[ajchien]

Every two years is my routine. Usually done with cleaning the hardware and new grease on the pins and hardware. Sometimes I may forget and it goes 3 years. After doing it the 2 person method for years, I went to the pressure bleeder method.

 

[DallasTexas]

I have 06 Mercedes E-Class CDI with (SBC) a Sensotronic Brake Control system it comes with 25 years unlimited miles. I had changed the fluid twice and Mercedes changed it once free when they replaced the SBC system. I hate having to change fluid every time I fuel (I drive less than 10k a year)

 

[Jetronic]

I don't think we are talking about the same type of data. I think we are in agreement about the technical benefits and technical evidence of regular brake fluid replacement.
I was referring to data showing vehicle accidents or actual component failure data resulting from lack of brake fluid changes.

Every once in a while there's a report surfacing of brake fade causing an accident. But this usually makes the news if it's on a new vehicle, so old fluid is out of the question. And brake fade covers more than just fluid of course.

I don't really care if it's a cause of accidents anyway. Fresh fluid and perfectly working calipers and sliders with pads that have beeded in properly but never overheated are just so much nicer to drive. The brake pedal feel is better, there's no undue noises or judders and the car behaves better under braking. Keeping the fluid fresh and of the correct viscosity is just one part of that. Old fluid combined with slightly dragging brakes can cause a brake to heat up beyond the boiling point of the fluid, while seperately that is much less likely to happen.

Unlike what EdyVW said, fluid age or condition isn't universally checked in technical inspections in Europe.

 

[eljefino]

I couldn't agree more!! I have never been impressed with the turkey baster method. It is a lousy tool for removing fluids.

First, the bulb sometimes comes off. Second, the end of the baster is too large to get down inside brake reservoir or a p.s. reservoir. But worst of all, fluid drips out of turkey basters like crazy. They are a mess to use.

I pick up vet style syringes at the local farm supply stores. They are very inexpensive. Then I push a short length of 1/8" ID vinyl tubing. I cut the tube just long enough so I can get all the way to the bottom of the reservoir. Almost no dripping. Better control. No bulb to come off. Since the tubing is flexible, I can position the syringe wherever I need to.

There is no reason to put up with a turkey baster when there is so much better of an option.

I use the same mity vac I use on the bleeder nipples. Just stuff its 1/4 inch hose down the reservoir and pump away.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

If you do it immediately, this is true. If the system is working properly, it's going to mix fully over time. It's not going to do it with the car sitting, but it will with driving when the reservoir and the MC blend, which then blends with the lines, which then blends with the calipers...

This is basic physics; if you aren't familiar with "Brownian motion" or fluid dynamics, check it out. It works.

So please explain to the listening audience how "Brownian motion" works through non-serviceable filters in ABS systems?
https://www.brakebleeder.com/preventing-damage-abs-modulators-brake-pad-replacement/

 

[michael007]

Normally, every two years.

For some reason it had to be done again after only a year on my Honda HRV. Mechanic said fluid was dirty so I told him go ahead.