Boutique/Expensive Oils over standard brands?

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: salesrep
I am told some Japanese manufacturers are beginning to look at 0-8 oil!

Sorry for the endless Motul plugs but it's the only product I'm aware of that is available stateside, 1.8 mPA.s... Also comes in a 0w16 and 0w20.

http://www.motul.com/de/en/products/hybrid-0w8

 

[gryffinwings]

Originally Posted By: Toptierpao
About five years ago,Mobil was the largest producer of PAO's,not so sure where they stand now. Redline makes an excellent oil,however,since it is almost entirely Ester based,I would be careful in using it in a passenger motor vehicle as Esters will attract moisture. In a race engine, it is not an issue as moisture will evaporate with the high engine temps created and/or the oil will be dumped at very short intervals such as after a race.In an every day car,it could become a problem.

When using any filter using an Ester based oil,you should not go more than a year on the filter for the Ester can break down the media. This is especially important when using the less expensive filters but holds true of any filter used.

Amsoil buys its base stock mostly from Mobil,but,also from Petro Canada and Lubrizol. When they get a shipment, Amsoil will test it to make sure it is to their specs. On one occassion,it was below specs and the entire train load was sent back. That happened once and one time only.

Oil manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank with their greatest marketing scam which they coin "synthetic blend". There are some very smart people on this forum,however,I am shocked at those that use this oil. Unless it is stated on the bottle or their website,we have no idea on the percentage of synthetic oil in the container. The words "synthetic blend" is misleading to the public where most will assume its a 50/50 blend. It was stated in a court case years ago,that to be called a "synthetic blend",the oil must be a minimum of 5% synthetic.

Would you trust this in your modern engine with Direct Injection,high compression,low tension rings,VVT, turbo,twin turbo,and other technologies I am omitting? Conventional oil will not hold up and neither will this. The new classification of oils coming are not only to address the issues we are seeing with these motors,but,for the new and hotter running engines coming off the assembly lines.


I thought the moisture problem was debunked?

Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
I'm finding Motul products very expensive. I checked pricing of Redline products and they are much more affordable by amazon pricing.

It seems that a big difference between boutique/expensive oils vs big brand oils is from what I can tell is Ester based oils.


While esters may be a part of it but keep in mind the PAO content even on the service products will be much higher with products listed as "100% Synthetic." The majors and other known names will mainly market "Full/Fully Synthetic" products which really don't mean anything.


I'm not fully understanding what you are saying. Can you explain more fully what you are sayings?


Sorry if I wasn't clear... You had stated the biggest difference you can find between the specialty brands and major ones was that they have some ester base oils in their formulation. My point is this. Find a brand with "100% synthetic" labeled on the bottle. It doesn't have to be an ester based product to have this. Take my recommendation of an 8100 product from Motul for example. The 8100 oils will not have ester but a significant amount more of PAO vs products that it competes directly with like Mobil 1, Castrol Edge etc. Those competitor products will be labeled as "Full/Fully Synthetic" which means, a very small amount of PAO or none at all. Even though Red Line has ester, it is still marketed as a "Full Synthetic." In my opinion, the 300V is a step above Red Line and the price points prove this- as well as the smell of the oil! 300V smells amazing which I think further proves the concentration and legitimacy of the ester oils that are being used. You can even smell the difference.

I personally would compare an 8100 oil from Motul more in line with Red Line while Mobil 1 and Castrol being a step down from both of those in terms of quality.

You don't have to break the bank getting a high quality genuine 100% synthetic product. If you look up the 8100 X-max 0w40, I think you'll find it pretty comparable to Red Line engine oils in terms of price. Also, Red Line doesn't have any API/ACEA certification or approvals from OEM's where as the X-max will have BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, BMW and VW formal approvals in addition to API and ACEA certs.

Hope that helps.


Same question, is moisture absorption a problem with Ester oils, read this was debunked on this forum.

 

[salesrep]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: salesrep
I am told some Japanese manufacturers are beginning to look at 0-8 oil!

http://www.motul.com/de/en/products/hybrid-0w8


there you go....just ten years ago who would have thunk it.?.

 

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: gryffinwings


Same question, is moisture absorption a problem with Ester oils, read this was debunked on this forum.


I haven't seen ester oils struggle in auto applications due to moisture. Fuel dilution, a few times but nothing catastrophic. These results will vary depending on the type of esters used (there are 5000 of them choose from) and the concentration of esters within a given formulation.

However, esters are relatively an unstable molecule and are not typically recommended for extended drain intervals. It's part of the reasons why OEM's do not use them but it's a double edged sword to a degree. While they may not be able to go the distance, we're talking about a legitimate ester here, it would drastically drive up the cost of OEM fluids as they do heavily outperform crude based synthetics- OEM's don't want this due to cost of goods and that goes for the consumer as well. OEM's will even fail your product if you try and get an approval for an engine oil spec that have esters in it.

You can prop up the performance of a product using a minimal amount of esters while not effecting the oil drain interval but again, the OEM's will never do this because, well, it would be too good of a product at that point if they select the right ingredients- it then would set a whole new standard for OEM fluids and the whole industry would be flipped on its head. It's a shame but it gives aftermarket companies solutions to make some awesome products.

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
I'm finding Motul products very expensive. I checked pricing of Redline products and they are much more affordable by amazon pricing.

It seems that a big difference between boutique/expensive oils vs big brand oils is from what I can tell is Ester based oils.


While esters may be a part of it but keep in mind the PAO content even on the service products will be much higher with products listed as "100% Synthetic." The majors and other known names will mainly market "Full/Fully Synthetic" products which really don't mean anything.


I'm not fully understanding what you are saying. Can you explain more fully what you are sayings?


Sorry if I wasn't clear... You had stated the biggest difference you can find between the specialty brands and major ones was that they have some ester base oils in their formulation. My point is this. Find a brand with "100% synthetic" labeled on the bottle. It doesn't have to be an ester based product to have this. Take my recommendation of an 8100 product from Motul for example. The 8100 oils will not have ester but a significant amount more of PAO vs products that it competes directly with like Mobil 1, Castrol Edge etc. Those competitor products will be labeled as "Full/Fully Synthetic" which means, a very small amount of PAO or none at all. Even though Red Line has ester, it is still marketed as a "Full Synthetic." In my opinion, the 300V is a step above Red Line and the price points prove this- as well as the smell of the oil! 300V smells amazing which I think further proves the concentration and legitimacy of the ester oils that are being used. You can even smell the difference.

I personally would compare an 8100 oil from Motul more in line with Red Line while Mobil 1 and Castrol being a step down from both of those in terms of quality.

You don't have to break the bank getting a high quality genuine 100% synthetic product. If you look up the 8100 X-max 0w40, I think you'll find it pretty comparable to Red Line engine oils in terms of price. Also, Red Line doesn't have any API/ACEA certification or approvals from OEM's where as the X-max will have BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, BMW and VW formal approvals in addition to API and ACEA certs.

Hope that helps.



Why X-max 0w40 over X-cess 5w40?

 

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: BobFout



Why X-max 0w40 over X-cess 5w40?



No reason. OP appeared to be gravitating towards a 0w40. Certainly, the X-cess 5w40 is a worthy oil of choice as well.

 

[d00df00d]

I'm not sure Motul qualifies as a "boutique" blender, honestly. I think of them more as "high-end" (at least purportedly). They're more "niche" than brands like Mobil and Castrol, and they're certainly rarer here in North America. But they play in a lot of markets and get OE and third-party approvals all day.

When I think "boutique," I think of companies like Red Line, Amsoil, and RLI -- companies that are all about (purportedly) addressing specific shortcomings in mainstream products.

Either way, the problem is NOT in believing that the boutique brands sometimes do better than the majors. Or even that they often do better. Of course they do. The problem is that we have no good way to know when the boutique oils are better. We can talk all day about how plausible that is. But when the rubber meets the road, there's not much to go on besides marketing claims and anecdotes, which are unreliable by definition. At least the majors go to the trouble of getting third-party approvals; as I said earlier, those at least provides some basis for comparison.

In that respect, Motul is clearly different from the boutique blenders. They bring high-end claims AND third-party/OE approvals to the table. Or, in the case of 300V, more legitimate provenance than any approval-free brand.

Of course, given Motul's higher prices, you then have the question of whether there's enough evidence that any given Motul product is better than anything else that carries the same approvals. But that's another story.

 

[Toptierpao]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: salesrep
I am told some Japanese manufacturers are beginning to look at 0-8 oil!

Sorry for the endless Motul plugs but it's the only product I'm aware of that is available stateside, 1.8 mPA.s... Also comes in a 0w16 and 0w20.

http://www.motul.com/de/en/products/hybrid-0w8


Its all good information,so,keep it coming. Remember when people were freaking out when 0W20 oils were introduced? Five years from now,0W20 will be thought of as a thick oil.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A
I haven't seen ester oils struggle in auto applications due to moisture. Fuel dilution, a few times but nothing catastrophic. These results will vary depending on the type of esters used (there are 5000 of them choose from) and the concentration of esters within a given formulation.

Of course, the number of oil companies selling oils with really high concentrations of esters on the market can be counted on one hand, and even if he's had a band saw accident.

And there are oils out there that do have small amounts of esters in them, as part of blending a base stock in the first place.

 

[salesrep]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I'm not sure Motul qualifies as a "boutique" blender, honestly. I think of them more as "high-end" (at least purportedly). They're more "niche" than brands like Mobil and Castrol, and they're certainly rarer here in North America. But they play in a lot of markets and get OE and third-party approvals all day.

When I think "boutique," I think of companies like Red Line, Amsoil, and RLI -- companies that are all about (purportedly) addressing specific shortcomings in mainstream products.

Either way, the problem is NOT in believing that the boutique brands sometimes do better than the majors. Or even that they often do better. Of course they do. The problem is that we have no good way to know when the boutique oils are better. We can talk all day about how plausible that is. But when the rubber meets the road, there's not much to go on besides marketing claims and anecdotes, which are unreliable by definition. At least the majors go to the trouble of getting third-party approvals; as I said earlier, those at least provides some
basis for comparison.


Schaeffers is one that has done multiple studies, dynos, otr testing and consistently outperforms.

 

[Toptierpao]

I thought the moisture problem was debunked?

Some of the brightest lubrication experts I know stand by the "attraction of moisture" with a heavy Ester based oil. Is that 100% factual today given the way oil is experimented with and changed constantly looking for improvements while pushing new formulations to limits? Oil chemists are like mad scientists looking for the next break thru which is good imo. The amount of Esters or anything else used in ones product two years ago may be completely different this year.To answer you question,I do not know if it is now debunked,but,it is something I am not willing to test in my personal vehicles.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: salesrep
Schaeffers is one that has done multiple studies, dynos, otr testing and consistently outperforms.

Of course. But still no third-party approvals, so we are still stuck deciding whether to believe the manufacturer's claims.

 

[demarpaint]

I look at it this way. Simply put, keep in mind most if not all of the boutique oil companies are getting their "supplies" from major oil companies like XOM and Shell. Do you really think they get anything better than XOM and Shell would use for their own oils? We'd like to believe that's the case, proving it is another story.

 

[4ever4d]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I look at it this way. Simply put, keep in mind most if not all of the boutique oil companies are getting their "supplies" from major oil companies like XOM and Shell. Do you really think they get anything better than XOM and Shell would use for their own oils? We'd like to believe that's the case, proving it is another story.

True, but how they are blending the components and the amount of each used could be the difference between the two.

 

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I look at it this way. Simply put, keep in mind most if not all of the boutique oil companies are getting their "supplies" from major oil companies like XOM and Shell. Do you really think they get anything better than XOM and Shell would use for their own oils? We'd like to believe that's the case, proving it is another story.


The pure fact that you can get 100% synthetic products from boutique-specialist companies who proudly state they even use grp 5 oils while big oil cannot even claim a 100% synthetic product in a single auto product they manufacture is a major factor for me.

The additive market (as well as PAO) and esters) is controlled by 3-4 players. On the additive side, Chevron (Oronite), Lubrizol and a joint venture of Shell/XOM (Infineum I think) make up nearly the entire market. So even big oil relies on additive packages from these companies, not only the small manufacturers. And like base oils, there are a ton of different quality levels of additive even if they are the same compound. I can say for sure that that these guys (small-specialist co's) not only are using superior base oil formulations but they are also using the upper end scale of additive quality as well. Again, it is the only way to leverage yourself in the face of companies 100x bigger than you. You either fight them with quality and technical expertise or you make ultra cheap private label oils found at the gas station that you've never heard of that don't even comply with an API SJ rating.

Don't even get me started on the manufacturing side... Big oil rarely even makes their own stuff. Castrol for instance has a blending partner here in North America. They literally don't even make their product for this ENTIRE market. This goes for all these major oil co's globally. They are too big to keep everything under one roof. Whereas, the small companies, not only have better quality control, product continuity and product integrity they also can actually make their own product and distribute it globally.

 

[Toptierpao]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A

You can prop up the performance of a product using a minimal amount of esters while not effecting the oil drain interval but again, the OEM's will never do this because, well, it would be too good of a product at that point if they select the right ingredients- it then would set a whole new standard for OEM fluids and the whole industry would be flipped on its head. It's a shame but it gives aftermarket companies solutions to make some awesome products.


That statement right there has got to be one of the best statements on BITOG and could not be any more true! The car manufacturers would lose massive revenue as cars would last longer,many issues we are seeing now would mysteriously go away,engines,transmissions,differentials would last 2-3 times longer, engines will be cleaner and run more efficiently,emissions would be lower,fuel mileage would increase and more while using these super lubricating, extremely shear stable,high temperature protecting,sludge preventing Group IV/Group V oils.

It's all about money,you are correct,it will never happen. They will do what is profitable and continue to make things "good enough".

 

[WhizkidTN]

Based on my tuned little 2.0L turbo engine, I'd think the Motul oils would be a good fit (not based on price, only specs). So, I'd look at:

1) Motul 6100+ Synergie+ 5W-40
2) Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-40
3) Motul 8100 X-max 0W-40

 

[Toptierpao]

Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I look at it this way. Simply put, keep in mind most if not all of the boutique oil companies are getting their "supplies" from major oil companies like XOM and Shell. Do you really think they get anything better than XOM and Shell would use for their own oils? We'd like to believe that's the case, proving it is another story.

True, but how they are blending the components and the amount of each used could be the difference between the two.


That is the difference. PAO and Ester based oils are expensive. Since XOM can pretty much make everything in house,if they chose to,they can,for example,make a product every bit as good as Amsoil Signature Series and slash the price as well.

They however,take the money making route marketing their "full synthetic" oils to the masses knowing full well that probably 98% of the folks buying this oil think they are getting 100% synthetic oil. While full synthetic is a very good Group III oil, it pales in comparison to a Group IV/Group V oil. Amsoil and the other high end blenders are happy which keeps XOM happy because everyone buys from them,its a win/win situation.

 

[gryffinwings]

I am definitely considering Motul 8100 of one of the 2 flavors mentioned in my engine build, the current Mobil 1 High Mileage in the D15A3 with almost 200k miles should definitely last long enough until I have all the parts I need for the swap.

I'm just wondering what the difference is between Motul 8100 X-cess 4w40 and Motul 8100 X-max 0w40? I have no problem either way, I just don't know what benefits one has over the other.

And thanks so far for explaining the nuances of the industry, it is hard enough to find the best oil to use when there are so many choices, and you don't know what they are using in the oil as a base stock.

 

[Toptierpao]

I saw your oil analysis from a while ago and remember the high oxidation numbers you posted as well as shear if I remember correctly. With that said, in having a turbo direct injected engine known for fuel dilution,I would surely move up to a Group IV/Group V oil. I think your reports would improve hands down.