Boutique/Expensive Oils over standard brands?

Pennzoil motor oil
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jfi from another thread:
Originally Posted By: racin4ds
Years ago when I worked for PTG (North American BMW Race Team for ALMS) we ran Castrol 0W40 right off the shelf. I'd think Mobil 1 0W40 would be up to the task, its a stout oil and the only Mobil 1 oil I will use.


You can spend more, but I doubt that you can get more.
 
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
Originally Posted By: robertcope
6500? It's a tractor motor
smile.gif
You'll likely be just fine with something lik Mobil 1 0W-40. That's what I've run in almost everything, including my S2000. I've moved to Red Line 0w30 in my NSX and will likely do the same in the S2000, but not for any logical reason.


LOL, yeah, this is a old style Honda engine with no V-Tec like when the B16A engine came out, so there isn't much point in revving out to the stratosphere. Stock oil weight for the D16A1 is 10W40, honestly, I think that's a bit thick for startup, but then this engine was developed in the 80s, so I'm not sure if a 0W40 is ok for this engine.


In my racecar B18C that saw 9000 RPM on every shift, it used Mobil 1 5W30 without issue.

Although, if I still had that car, would probably be using Castrol 0W40 in it. It is like Frank's Red Hot, I put that sh$@ in everything.


Why Castro 0w40? Which one?
 
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings


I think I will consider a 10w30 for a rebuilt D16A1. I'll likely stick with Pennzoil though, I like the idea of more pure oil base refined from natural gas.


I agree. The idea of the Fischer-Tropsch GTL process is really appealing. But I haven't been able to translate that into world-beating performance, yet. And I don't think anyone else has yet, either. I tried Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 (not HM) in two alternate OCIs (7,500 each) with Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w30 in between (and before and after, it has been my regular oil for a while now). I saw a slight increase in oil usage over the interval with the Pennzoil Platinum = 1 qt vs. about .5/.6 qt with the Mobil 1 High Mileage. I did this twice to confirm. That alone is not a reason to NOT use the oil, but others I have read here also note a slightly higher consumption with Pennzoil Platinum for some reason. This was a few years ago before the Pennzoil PlatinumHM was available, and I haven't tried that yet. The HTHS on the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 was more like a 5w30 (e.g., something like 3.1 I believe), and that came from an independent test because Pennzoil doesn't release it. I could tell a slightly quieter operation with the Mobil 1 High Mileage. I went back to the Mobil 1 High Mileage on a permanent basis and since then and I haven't yet tried the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 HM.

It's a little frustrating as M1 won't give you their noack, but will give you the HTHS. Pennzoil doesn't release either so you have to catch data from independent test, which is spotty. You can't make an informed data-driven decision. I'll try the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 HM sometime soon, but I'm not expecting it to be as stout as the Mobil 1 High Mileage, frankly. The lack of ACEA certs and reluctance to release all specs makes me less eager to try the Pennzoil Platinum again. I have a no reason to doubt it is an excellent oil, but maybe just not "best in class," yet.

Now, for your application, 10w30 is likely a good grade to focus on. After that, do NOT be limited by HM vs. non HM. Hm will have, vs non, somewhat more seal conditioners (they all have them), and usually more dosage of ZDDP and there anti-wear additives you cannot put into modern oils because of mileage-driven requirements. I just don't think that applies to an older engine. For example, M1 kept the 10wXX HM variants "SL" rated (which was superseded in about 2005) until just last year. They didn't care about the current "SN" rating in order to provide more protection for older engines. As background, the newer oil ratings reduced the level of certain anti-wear additives that could be used in order to meet emissions goals - NOT because it's good for the engine itself.
 
Good discussion All. In Australia where oil is significantly more expensive than in the USA, Boutique oils often charge +$20AUD a Litre (Quart.) That said even Mobil 1 0W40 and 5W30 is $100/5L as well. As such I tend to stick to Helix Ultra (on sale for $50-60/5L)

Personally I prefer to purchase oils from companies who are vertically integrated. The big players (Royal Dutch Shell / Mobil / BP / Chevron / Total / Eneos / ...) These companies have not only a reputation to uphold, but huge OEM contracts to ensure are renewed year after year. As such they invest $millions into R'n'D and work with the regulatory bodies and OEMs to ensure they're oils are at the top of the game. In addition these companies are large enough to manufacture their own additive packs, and don't need to rely on 3rd party supplies. This gives them greater flexibility to continue to develop and refine their products.

There is a very good reason Ferrari/Maserati spec Helix Ultra oils and the VW group use Castrol synthetics as their OEM fill. And why Toyota source their oil form Eneos or why Renault/Citreon/Peugeot all get Total straight from the factory. It’s because these companies have worked together to develop the best products in conjunction with each other.

Just remember there is a reason
-Ferrari F1 and Penski racing have a Shell stickers on the side,
-why the 24-Hour of LeMans winning Porsche had a Mobil 1 sticker.
-Why LMP2 winner had Total stickers on the side

These $billion oil companies are at the top of the game and we the consumer are reaping the benefits. Never before, have such complex, high performance formulations been available so affordably. The boutiques can’t match them.

My 2cents
Jordan
additive packs, and don't need to rely on 3rd party supplies. This gives them greater flexibility to continue to deveop and refine their products.
 
Originally Posted By: JFAllen
In addition these companies are large enough to manufacture their own additive packs, and don't need to rely on 3rd party supplies. This gives them greater flexibility to continue to develop and refine their products.

This seems like an important point.

AFAIK, the boutique brands use legitimately top-shelf base oils, but with off-the-shelf additive packs. I'm sure it's a good combo, but... better than a completely custom formula? Worth the higher price? I'm sure it is in some cases, but it's hard to imagine that that's the rule.
 
Originally Posted By: Oro_O
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings


I think I will consider a 10w30 for a rebuilt D16A1. I'll likely stick with Pennzoil though, I like the idea of more pure oil base refined from natural gas.


I agree. The idea of the Fischer-Tropsch GTL process is really appealing. But I haven't been able to translate that into world-beating performance, yet. And I don't think anyone else has yet, either. I tried Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 (not HM) in two alternate OCIs (7,500 each) with Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w30 in between (and before and after, it has been my regular oil for a while now). I saw a slight increase in oil usage over the interval with the Pennzoil Platinum = 1 qt vs. about .5/.6 qt with the Mobil 1 High Mileage. I did this twice to confirm. That alone is not a reason to NOT use the oil, but others I have read here also note a slightly higher consumption with Pennzoil Platinum for some reason. This was a few years ago before the Pennzoil PlatinumHM was available, and I haven't tried that yet. The HTHS on the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 was more like a 5w30 (e.g., something like 3.1 I believe), and that came from an independent test because Pennzoil doesn't release it. I could tell a slightly quieter operation with the Mobil 1 High Mileage. I went back to the Mobil 1 High Mileage on a permanent basis and since then and I haven't yet tried the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 HM.

It's a little frustrating as M1 won't give you their noack, but will give you the HTHS. Pennzoil doesn't release either so you have to catch data from independent test, which is spotty. You can't make an informed data-driven decision. I'll try the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 HM sometime soon, but I'm not expecting it to be as stout as the Mobil 1 High Mileage, frankly. The lack of ACEA certs and reluctance to release all specs makes me less eager to try the Pennzoil Platinum again. I have a no reason to doubt it is an excellent oil, but maybe just not "best in class," yet.

Now, for your application, 10w30 is likely a good grade to focus on. After that, do NOT be limited by HM vs. non HM. Hm will have, vs non, somewhat more seal conditioners (they all have them), and usually more dosage of ZDDP and there anti-wear additives you cannot put into modern oils because of mileage-driven requirements. I just don't think that applies to an older engine. For example, M1 kept the 10wXX HM variants "SL" rated (which was superseded in about 2005) until just last year. They didn't care about the current "SN" rating in order to provide more protection for older engines. As background, the newer oil ratings reduced the level of certain anti-wear additives that could be used in order to meet emissions goals - NOT because it's good for the engine itself.


I picked up Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w30, since there wasn't any 10w40 High milage I wanted to use, Mobil 1 high mileage 10w30 is now API SN. I wonder what changed, I think I will send in a VOA sample to Blackstone to see what's up.
 
I've also decided just now, screw boutique fancy pants oils. I plan on using Mobil 1 0w40. On top of that I just blew my mind when I saw the VOA for Mobil 1 Racing 0w30 and will likely stock up and substitute a quart of that in with my oil changes. Here's the VOA I found in another thread.

Mobil 1 Racing 0w30
Blackstone-E41615.jpg
 
Seems Mobil 1 Racing oil is a boutique/expensive oil regardless of name associations...
Notice how many race with something affordable like Mobil 1 15w50 or VR1 ...
 
Expensive and boutique oils these days are for markets that the bigs have forgotten, don't care about in the first place, or when they screw up the formula in the name of political or environmental influence.

Some of the bigs (like Valvoline with its VR1) haven't forgotten that there's more out there than what's sitting on the showroom floor.

Do I feel any need to pour a boutique oil into a regular, bone stock car? No.

But specialized applications sometimes need a specialized oil.
 
are you doing the machining yourself? Oftentimes, the shop doing the machine work will have a recommendation, and if they don't I might be concerned.
 
Originally Posted By: meep
are you doing the machining yourself? Oftentimes, the shop doing the machine work will have a recommendation, and if they don't I might be concerned.


No, but I will make sure to ask that question when the time comes. Thanks.
 
I rarely chime in anymore but this is the biggest load I've heard in awhile, with all due respect of course. But coming from within the industry both on the OEM and motorsport side, I can't help myself on this one.

The assertion that big oil works with the OEM's and governing bodies "more closely" is simply not true. Their products, like many others, go through the same certification and approval process like the "boutique" oils that have the same approvals/certs. Many of the contracts are regional with the OEM's in terms of service fill, even factory fill. It goes to the point that OEM's don't reply on a single supplier for their lubrication needs. It often just comes down to the $$$ and who can pay the most for what ultimately is a cross-marketing contract. Not a technical one.

In motorsport, don't be misled by the stickers on the cars. I can tell you by personal experience, factory and independent teams running X brand on the side of the car often don't even use that product. As an example, I can tell you with 100% certainty that the LMP2 class as a whole of WEC/Le Mans don't use oil from any big brand oil company.

Now this is where you couldn't be more wrong... As someone else said, big oil like large beer or food chains, make a product that's decent, won't make you sick, will fill you up but won't taste as good going down. That's a great analogy about oil honestly. They make a product that can be mass produced at a very small cost for millions of applications. That is their business. Keep in mind there are just a handful of PAO and ester manufacturers globally and the big oil co's aren't exactly comprised of them and there is a very limited supply of those materials. These smaller-more specialist companies- and that is what they are, a specialties company; where XOM, Shell etc are commodity companies and their products prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. All you have to look for as a consumer is "100% synthetic" vs "Full/Fully Synthetic" to know where the product stands in terms of quality; there is a big difference and that is a simple indicator of the quality of products being used. Now for the additive side, Chevron, a XOM/Shell joint venture are the only big oil companies that own an additive company. Other than that, big, medium, small, private oil refiners or blenders buy from the same people for their additive packages. And like base oils, additives also vary in their quality even if they are the same compound. Kep in mind these companies own about 90% of the additive market so if you're an Amsoil or Mobil 1 user, you might be using the same exact ingredient (s). This can go for base oil too, no one company has enough base oil to fill their needs so base oil is traded among EVERYONE.

The small guys have invented more lubrication technology and for the most part will use more PAO, esters and higher quality additive packages simply based on their market position- it is the one of the few ways they can leverage an advantage over companies with unlimited resources. In many cases they win that battle. The OEM and aftermarket technical partnerships they can also acquire, simply based on their technical expertise and product quality, that are not even discussed or known are astounding especially considering who they have to compete against.
 
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