Boutique/Expensive Oils over standard brands?

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They do but not to the extent one would think... There are many private refiners/chemical companies that produce much of the market share globally.

The only 3 that have any significant market share I'm aware of (big oil that is) are:

1. Joint venture- Chevron/P66
2. Idemitsu
3. XOM
 
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Please do google largest producer of PAO and keep in mind serious "boutique" oils include their industrial groups - where lots of the PAO/mPAO gets used ... lots of ester for GE/RR/Pratt
What we should appreciate about the majors is they blend a number of base stocks and give us good stuff for a good price. They are plenty capable and do custom lubes for race teams ...
I maintain 6 personal vehicles and industrial engines up to 7000 HP. Know what I have Redline in? Only the transfer case in a small pickup.
A big portion of expensive oil users do it to feel better - and that's all good too - we love our equipment big or small.
 
4wd Flying A is not knocking the big oil companies at all. He is just pointing out that there are a number of smaller companies that do a lot more with specialized products than one would first think.
 
My point was, not all big oil is involved in producing PAO's. One would think they do...

Like I said, they make a decent product, widely available etc. I get the advantages for sure. I also was just talking in terms of automotive and while yes, they may have that ability on a very small scale, a company like Castrol doesn't have capacity to produce specialty ester based syns for auto use for instance while the smaller guys do. That is my point and that goes to the bigger picture. The standard offering from the small guys will be just as good as this "specialty product" you speak of from a big oil co and the consumer pays a marginal premium for that.

Redline doesn't even have an industrial division so not exactly a fair comparison but other guys like Fuchs and Motul however do and they are starting to make a bigger impact in those segments that you have specialty in on a global scale.
 
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What specialty product?

Food grade aerosols, high end machining oils, fuel additives for specific fuels, dielectric hydraulic fluids with friction modifiers, cotton picker grease...to name a few.
 
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Originally Posted By: 4WD
What specialty product?



Well you had mentioned, for motorsport as an example; big oil does and can produce some exotic oil product when often times, a boutique blender already makes this product right off the shelf for more or less mass distribution. The advantage is, besides the consumer getting an awesome product, that from a motorsports perspective, your team can get the same product in Japan as they can get in Germany from a local source. Product integrity and continuity is kept this way.
 
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Originally Posted By: Flying_A
My point was, not all big oil is involved in producing PAO's. One would think they do...

Like I said, they make a decent product, widely available etc. I get the advantages for sure. I also was just talking in terms of automotive and while yes, they may have that ability on a very small scale, a company like Castrol doesn't have capacity to produce specialty ester based syns for auto use for instance while the smaller guys do. That is my point and that goes to the bigger picture. The standard offering from the small guys will be just as good as this "specialty product" you speak of from a big oil co and the consumer pays a marginal premium for that.

Redline doesn't even have an industrial division so not exactly a fair comparison but other guys like Fuchs and Motul however do and they are starting to make a bigger impact in those segments that you have specialty in on a global scale.



So who does make an Ester based synthetic or Ester+PAO based synthetic? Since you say Castrol doesn't have the capacity. Does Mobil 1 or Pennzoil/Shell produce Ester Oils? Or would I need to go for a boutique oil?
 
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
Originally Posted By: Flying_A
My point was, not all big oil is involved in producing PAO's. One would think they do...

Like I said, they make a decent product, widely available etc. I get the advantages for sure. I also was just talking in terms of automotive and while yes, they may have that ability on a very small scale, a company like Castrol doesn't have capacity to produce specialty ester based syns for auto use for instance while the smaller guys do. That is my point and that goes to the bigger picture. The standard offering from the small guys will be just as good as this "specialty product" you speak of from a big oil co and the consumer pays a marginal premium for that.

Redline doesn't even have an industrial division so not exactly a fair comparison but other guys like Fuchs and Motul however do and they are starting to make a bigger impact in those segments that you have specialty in on a global scale.



So who does make an Ester based synthetic or Ester+PAO based synthetic? Since you say Castrol doesn't have the capacity. Does Mobil 1 or Pennzoil/Shell produce Ester Oils? Or would I need to go for a boutique oil?


The first 100% synthetic for auto usage was an ester syn that was produced in 1971 was Motul's 300V which is still in production today. It is probably the most legit ester synthetic (grp 3/4 and 5) in terms of concentration and research and development behind it. Redline is also known to have some great ester based syns as well (also a grp 3/4/5) but unsure of what's happened there in terms of product quality or formulation changes since being bought by Phillips66 last year.

None of the majors use esters in their products for auto use. Shell as you may know is really pushing the GTL base oils that have group3+ performance abilities. Mobil is now strarting to adopt that practice, we know this due to the BMW LL-01 cert being dropped on the 0w40. The speculation is Mobil 1 dropped the PAO out of the 0w40 for the GTL and has not either renewed the cert or can't pass the test.

If I were to make a recommendation formally, Motul 300V Trophy or the 8100 X-max 0w40 would great choices. Their 8100 line is their service/performance product line. Both will be 100% synthetic, not "fully synthetic" so both will have a nice shot PAO as a result while the 300V will have some group 5. No ester/grp 5 in the X-max.
 
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Ok - so this was really a Super Bowl ad for Motul - and we are now on ester -
(I mentioned GE/RR/Pratt as where we know we need it) Most just don't - the subject at hand.
you never recognized the largest producer of PAO BTW ... and yes the big boys have PAO, ester, AN , etc at their fingertips -
Would you want to also supply a big portion of the airline or generation sectors - or just racers.

Sell to the classes works for some - and also selling to the masses nets huge ...
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Ok - so this was really a Super Bowl ad for Motul - and we are now on ester -
(I mentioned GE/RR/Pratt as where we know we need it) Most just don't - the subject at hand.
you never recognized the largest producer of PAO BTW ... and yes the big boys have PAO, ester, AN , etc at their fingertips -
Would you want to also supply a big portion of the airline or generation sectors - or just racers.

Sell to the classes works for some - and also selling to the masses nets huge ...


Huh? I mentioned it along with 3 other products in one post and recommended it formally to answer the OP along with Redline.

I did- I listed the 3 big oil co's that are involved in producing PAO in a list (1. Joint venture- ChevronPhillips, 2. XOM, 3. Idemistdu). I do not know off hand who the biggest producer of PAO is- if my memory is correct ChevronPhillips is the market leader in volume?

I also said Fuchs and others are making large strides to capture specialty industrial applications- power generation being the big push. I would imagine aeronautics are just too big a of a liability for the smaller guys. Putting people in the air requires a lot of insurance that probably isn't worth the opportunity in terms of volume and R&D that would be required. Metal working fluids for those aeronautics has some huge upside though.

It will be just a mater of time before these specialty products become more main stream as the consumer becomes more educated and accessibility is improved. Not to mention the amount of approvals an oil needs today in just the auto industry alone. The boutique guys can come up with product much faster where big oil can't keep up in terms of aftermarket solutions. This is also an advantage as the market is dictating this trend globally as well as high end premium synthetics to go along with it and the small guys are in a perfect position to take that on.

I would want to sell the most oil where I can and auto related lubes account for over 50% of demand globally where industrial oils are around 20%? Racing is where you can market the product to then sell on the street.
 
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Originally Posted By: Flying_A


If I were to make a recommendation formally, Motul 300V Trophy or the 8100 X-max 0w40 would great choices. Their 8100 line is their service/performance product line. Both will be 100% synthetic, not "fully synthetic" so both will have a nice shot PAO as a result while the 300V will have some group 5. No ester/grp 5 in the X-max.



Motul also sells a product called "Sport 5W-40" about which the datasheet says

"100% synthetic Ester based lubricant, specially designed for high performance tuined turbo-charged, supercharged gasoline and diesel multi-valve fuel injection engines. Provides outstanding engine performances in the most severe driving conditions."

I have referred to it in the past as sort of the halfway house between 8100 and 300V. So I have assumed, rightly or wrongly, that 300V, due to its cost and intended purpose, has a higher proportion of ester. The sport ester has an HTHS of 4.0. Available on Amazon.

One aside on the aircraft engine market - it is tiny compared to the other markets. You'd have to be an idiot to invest what would be necessary to compete against the Bigs for such a sliver.
 
I'm finding Motul products very expensive. I checked pricing of Redline products and they are much more affordable by amazon pricing.

It seems that a big difference between boutique/expensive oils vs big brand oils is from what I can tell is Ester based oils.
 
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
I'm finding Motul products very expensive. I checked pricing of Redline products and they are much more affordable by amazon pricing.


Yup, I have an easier time getting ahold of Red Line (it's not Redline) products than I do Motul. Motul is also a bit confusing in my opinion, with many "varieties" of oil, it's hard to know which one is the right one.
 
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
I'm finding Motul products very expensive. I checked pricing of Redline products and they are much more affordable by amazon pricing.

It seems that a big difference between boutique/expensive oils vs big brand oils is from what I can tell is Ester based oils.


While esters may be a part of it but keep in mind the PAO content even on the service products will be much higher with products listed as "100% Synthetic." The majors and other known names will mainly market "Full/Fully Synthetic" products which really don't mean anything.
 
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Originally Posted By: robertcope
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
I'm finding Motul products very expensive. I checked pricing of Redline products and they are much more affordable by amazon pricing.


Yup, I have an easier time getting ahold of Red Line (it's not Redline) products than I do Motul. Motul is also a bit confusing in my opinion, with many "varieties" of oil, it's hard to know which one is the right one.


300V: Motorsport/street product w/ Estercore Technology
8100: 100% Synthetic Oils
4100/6100: Synthetic Oil w/ Technosynthese Technology

That about sums it up but it takes some studying to understand the line and the intricacies of the products within those given lines.

Also consider, the letter "X" is their high HTHS products and the word "Eco" will identify their low HTHS products. They do not have a great system which identifies Full SAPS, Mid and Low. If you see the character "+" that will be a low or mid SAPS product. That is as much as I can figure out... That is what ultimately makes it confusing even for me as a big Motul fan (obviously).
 
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Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
I'm finding Motul products very expensive. I checked pricing of Redline products and they are much more affordable by amazon pricing.

It seems that a big difference between boutique/expensive oils vs big brand oils is from what I can tell is Ester based oils.


While esters may be a part of it but keep in mind the PAO content even on the service products will be much higher with products listed as "100% Synthetic." The majors and other known names will mainly market "Full/Fully Synthetic" products which really don't mean anything.


I'm not fully understanding what you are saying. Can you explain more fully what you are sayings?
 
About five years ago,Mobil was the largest producer of PAO's,not so sure where they stand now. Redline makes an excellent oil,however,since it is almost entirely Ester based,I would be careful in using it in a passenger motor vehicle as Esters will attract moisture. In a race engine, it is not an issue as moisture will evaporate with the high engine temps created and/or the oil will be dumped at very short intervals such as after a race.In an every day car,it could become a problem.

When using any filter using an Ester based oil,you should not go more than a year on the filter for the Ester can break down the media. This is especially important when using the less expensive filters but holds true of any filter used.

Amsoil buys its base stock mostly from Mobil,but,also from Petro Canada and Lubrizol. When they get a shipment, Amsoil will test it to make sure it is to their specs. On one occassion,it was below specs and the entire train load was sent back. That happened once and one time only.

Oil manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank with their greatest marketing scam which they coin "synthetic blend". There are some very smart people on this forum,however,I am shocked at those that use this oil. Unless it is stated on the bottle or their website,we have no idea on the percentage of synthetic oil in the container. The words "synthetic blend" is misleading to the public where most will assume its a 50/50 blend. It was stated in a court case years ago,that to be called a "synthetic blend",the oil must be a minimum of 5% synthetic.

Would you trust this in your modern engine with Direct Injection,high compression,low tension rings,VVT, turbo,twin turbo,and other technologies I am omitting? Conventional oil will not hold up and neither will this. The new classification of oils coming are not only to address the issues we are seeing with these motors,but,for the new and hotter running engines coming off the assembly lines.
 
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
I'm finding Motul products very expensive. I checked pricing of Redline products and they are much more affordable by amazon pricing.

It seems that a big difference between boutique/expensive oils vs big brand oils is from what I can tell is Ester based oils.


While esters may be a part of it but keep in mind the PAO content even on the service products will be much higher with products listed as "100% Synthetic." The majors and other known names will mainly market "Full/Fully Synthetic" products which really don't mean anything.


I'm not fully understanding what you are saying. Can you explain more fully what you are sayings?


Sorry if I wasn't clear... You had stated the biggest difference you can find between the specialty brands and major ones was that they have some ester base oils in their formulation. My point is this. Find a brand with "100% synthetic" labeled on the bottle. It doesn't have to be an ester based product to have this. Take my recommendation of an 8100 product from Motul for example. The 8100 oils will not have ester but a significant amount more of PAO vs products that it competes directly with like Mobil 1, Castrol Edge etc. Those competitor products will be labeled as "Full/Fully Synthetic" which means, a very small amount of PAO or none at all. Even though Red Line has ester, it is still marketed as a "Full Synthetic." In my opinion, the 300V is a step above Red Line and the price points prove this- as well as the smell of the oil! 300V smells amazing which I think further proves the concentration and legitimacy of the ester oils that are being used. You can even smell the difference.

I personally would compare an 8100 oil from Motul more in line with Red Line while Mobil 1 and Castrol being a step down from both of those in terms of quality.

You don't have to break the bank getting a high quality genuine 100% synthetic product. If you look up the 8100 X-max 0w40, I think you'll find it pretty comparable to Red Line engine oils in terms of price. Also, Red Line doesn't have any API/ACEA certification or approvals from OEM's where as the X-max will have BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, BMW and VW formal approvals in addition to API and ACEA certs.

Hope that helps.
 
I am told some Japanese manufacturers are beginning to look at 0-8 oil!
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