Boutique/Expensive Oils over standard brands?

[WhizkidTN]

Originally Posted By: Toptierpao
I saw your oil analysis from a while ago and remember the high oxidation numbers you posted as well as shear if I remember correctly. With that said, in having a turbo direct injected engine known for fuel dilution,I would surely move up to a Group IV/Group V oil. I think your reports would improve hands down.


I have just switched to Castrol Edge 0W-40 and will get a used oil analysis of it once done. If I don't like the results, I may very well give the more expensive Motul 8100 a try. This replaced the M1 "FS" 0W-40 oil run I just completed and sent off for used oil analysis at Polaris.

 

[Dallas69]

It's just an ego thing.
People with a little 4 cylinder and a rear spoiler think if they spend a was of money on a boutique oil it will turn their pride and joy into an Indy car.

 

[OVERKILL]

Motul and Fuchs are not what I would describe as "boutique" oil companies. I think of them more like Valvoline and other smaller players

Fuchs does plenty of OEM work as does I assume Motul.

When I think Boutique I think AMSOIL, Royal Purple, Redline (though perhaps not now given they are owned by Philips), Shaeffers and the like.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: BobFout
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Flying_A
The day Mobil 1 5w30 has a NOACK of 6 will be the day [censored] freezes over...

Link

Column 6 is Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30. Tested NOACK value is 5.6%.

Pack a warm coat, I guess.


Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 is not Mobil 1 5w30. (look at the HTHS, KV 100 and TBN from the blending chart)

Of course it's not.

But the "boutique" 5w30s with lower NOACKs aren't exactly comparable to Mobil 1 5w30 either, are they? They're meant to be higher-end products at higher prices. That's the whole point. The boutique 5w30s that ARE designed for similar applications/price points to Mobil 1 5w30 (e.g. some of Amsoil's 5w30s) tend not to have NOACK numbers that low.

I'm assuming Flying_A was't comparing different types of products to facilitate sweeping generalizations about brands. He's made a few fallacious arguments in this thread, but nothing that stupid. On that assumption, the only way I could make sense of his statement quoted above is as a comment about Mobil oils in general. If I'm wrong about that (or anything else), I'm sure he'll offer a correction.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Motul and Fuchs are not what I would describe as "boutique" oil companies. I think of them more like Valvoline and other smaller players

Fuchs does plenty of OEM work as does I assume Motul.

When I think Boutique I think AMSOIL, Royal Purple, Redline (though perhaps not now given they are owned by Philips), Shaeffers and the like.

Repost!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Motul and Fuchs are not what I would describe as "boutique" oil companies. I think of them more like Valvoline and other smaller players

Fuchs does plenty of OEM work as does I assume Motul.

When I think Boutique I think AMSOIL, Royal Purple, Redline (though perhaps not now given they are owned by Philips), Shaeffers and the like.

Repost!

Yeah, I saw that

 

[salesrep]

"Boutiques" have changed the last decade or so. Some bought out or merged. Cen pe co, LE, Texas Refinery, Amsoil, Redline, purple, seem to have some niches and Schaeffers continues to grow. More parity lies in the passenger oil market and conversely the diesel engine oil market has given more of an advantage to the smaller blenders.

 

[gryffinwings]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Motul and Fuchs are not what I would describe as "boutique" oil companies. I think of them more like Valvoline and other smaller players

Fuchs does plenty of OEM work as does I assume Motul.

When I think Boutique I think AMSOIL, Royal Purple, Redline (though perhaps not now given they are owned by Philips), Shaeffers and the like.


Hince why I posted boutique/expensive oils.

 

[gryffinwings]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
It's just an ego thing.
People with a little 4 cylinder and a rear spoiler think if they spend a was of money on a boutique oil it will turn their pride and joy into an Indy car.


Your statement seems rather condescending and insulting and adds nothing to the thread. So what if I want to use the best oil in my little 4 cylinder that I may install a wing on and not a spoiler, since both have different apps, a wing being for downforce. It's my car that I'm trying to squeeze power out of, and I'd be stupid to think it was an Indy car.

 

[BrocLuno]

Yeah, I think a Honda S2000 that gets track days would be best on Red Line, 4-cylinder or not

 

[Flying_A]

Where to start... My comment was in regards to Mobil 1 5w30, regular flavor. Not a high end Euro spec'd oil that has been imported from Europe the last 10 years- let's try and compare equals here. My point was, it is held up and marketed as an ultra premium product when in all honesty, is average. That is the problem I have with big oil. They've become marketing companies before true lubricant companies (when it comes to automotive) and there are a lot of smoke and mirrors in terms of consumer transparency. It should [censored] you off!

Magnatec? That's a great example... While it may be a good product but to market it as it being some kind of magnet-wonder oil is flat out ridiculous. All auto engine oils have polarity and cling to ferrous metals. It's a fundamental principle of lubricantion. That's the kind of stuff that bothers me. So I turn to companies that are much more transparent about their products and as I've said, compete with the majors because of product quality because they do t have the marketing budget to do so. It's the only leverage they have.

Not sure how you can say Motul, Royal Purple and Valvoline in the same sentence. You're talking about a $500mil in revenue co and a $8bil one? Royal Purple is owned by Calumet, a Fortune 500 company that is one of if not the biggest oil blenders in North America. I'd imagine their revenue is as big as Ashland's. Motul doesn't even offer a conventional oil, only high end synthetic products many of which are ester based Motorsport products. How are they not a boutique brand? They have way more in common with Red Line or Amsoil than they do with Valvoline or Mobil etc.

Not sure I got back to everyone's responses.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A


Not sure how you can say Motul, Royal Purple and Valvoline in the same sentence. You're talking about a $500mil in revenue co and a $8bil one? Royal Purple is owned by Calumet, a Fortune 500 company that is one of if not the biggest oil blenders in North America. I'd imagine their revenue is as big as Ashland's. Motul doesn't even offer a conventional oil, only high end synthetic products many of which are ester based Motorsport products. How are they not a boutique brand? They have way more in common with Red Line or Amsoil than they do with Valvoline or Mobil etc.

Not sure I got back to everyone's responses.



Generally when people think of boutique oils they think of products that don't carry OEM approvals. It has only been in recent years that AMSOIL has pursued the OEM approval line as a blender, Redline doesn't cater to that market at all and neither does Royal Purple, no matter who are now their parent companies.

In that context, Fuchs and Motul are both set apart from that group as they carry extensive OEM approvals across a wide range of products. When I think of boutique I subsequently do not think of these brand. In my mind, these are in a separate category of "premium blenders" which are not of the same scale as perhaps Valvoline, but that is because they don't cater to the lower tier conventional oil market.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


In that context, Fuchs and Motul are both set apart from that group as they carry extensive OEM approvals across a wide range of products. When I think of boutique I subsequently do not think of these brand. In my mind, these are in a separate category of "premium blenders" which are not of the same scale as perhaps Valvoline, but that is because they don't cater to the lower tier conventional oil market.



Yes. They are positioned as "premium" brands with most premium specifications accounted for (I tend to key on Porsche A40. I don't own one but, to me, if it can handle aircooled it's OK by me). Don't know about Fuchs but Motul produces their own alcohol-based esters so perhaps they exceed the "blender" title but I agree with your point.


Gryffinwings - I noticed you mentioning quarts in one of the earlier posts. Note that Motul is in 5 liter jugs so when evaluating price for price remember you need to do a liter-quart conversion and, in addition, don't be tripped up by gallon vs. 5 liter jugs.

Recently my daughter had been running low on oil in the 2006 Civic SI. Looking back at the invoices part of the problem seems to have been that there were times when an oil change shop (I know, I know...) would refill with 5 QUARTS or worse, sometimes with 1 Gallon. The SI takes 5.8 quarts which is more or less equal to 5 liters. So sometimes she was starting almost 1 or two quarts low. And THEN she doesn't check it for 5,000 miles! I can get her the 5 liter Motul jugs for $35 or so and ship it to her place. Job done.

 

[userfriendly]

Where does Valvoline fit into the big picture?
They have lubricants for racing right up to top fuel, Restore for Cummins Diesels and cost effective products on department store shelves.

www.valvoline.com

 

[WhizkidTN]

Where would a Total Oil brand with their Quartz product line fit in the Boutique mind-frame?
Would they be similar to a Motul branded oil? How about a Pentosin branded oil?

This thread has me very curious now.

 

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Where would a Total Oil brand with their Quartz product line fit in the Boutique mind-frame?
Would they be similar to a Motul branded oil? How about a Pentosin branded oil?

This thread has me very curious now.


TOTAL is the 5th largest oil co in the world... They are the equivalent to any of the majors of course. The Quartz line is marketed as a synthetic in most cases. Not "full" and definitely not 100%. Formally approved though.

Pentosin has a ton of OEM business and specialize in high end service products. They are owned by CRP who also owns Continental Tire and a handful of other brands. They do not have much of a aftermarket focus but they are beginning to look at that more closely.

 

[gryffinwings]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


In that context, Fuchs and Motul are both set apart from that group as they carry extensive OEM approvals across a wide range of products. When I think of boutique I subsequently do not think of these brand. In my mind, these are in a separate category of "premium blenders" which are not of the same scale as perhaps Valvoline, but that is because they don't cater to the lower tier conventional oil market.



Yes. They are positioned as "premium" brands with most premium specifications accounted for (I tend to key on Porsche A40. I don't own one but, to me, if it can handle aircooled it's OK by me). Don't know about Fuchs but Motul produces their own alcohol-based esters so perhaps they exceed the "blender" title but I agree with your point.


Gryffinwings - I noticed you mentioning quarts in one of the earlier posts. Note that Motul is in 5 liter jugs so when evaluating price for price remember you need to do a liter-quart conversion and, in addition, don't be tripped up by gallon vs. 5 liter jugs.

Recently my daughter had been running low on oil in the 2006 Civic SI. Looking back at the invoices part of the problem seems to have been that there were times when an oil change shop (I know, I know...) would refill with 5 QUARTS or worse, sometimes with 1 Gallon. The SI takes 5.8 quarts which is more or less equal to 5 liters. So sometimes she was starting almost 1 or two quarts low. And THEN she doesn't check it for 5,000 miles! I can get her the 5 liter Motul jugs for $35 or so and ship it to her place. Job done.


I stand corrected, here's my correction.

Mobil 1 10w30 High Mileage is 5 quarts = 4.73 Liters = $22.80 USD at Walmart
Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40 is 5 Liters = 5.28 Quarts = $44.95 USD at ECS Tuning plus $20 dollars shipping
Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40 at 5 Liters + 1 Liter = 6.34 Quarts = $54.90 with free shipping at ECS Tuning.

However please let me know where you are getting Motul for $35 dollars, that's pretty good price in my opinion.

 

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Where would a Total Oil brand with their Quartz product line fit in the Boutique mind-frame?
Would they be similar to a Motul branded oil? How about a Pentosin branded oil?

This thread has me very curious now.



I should've also mentioned, Pentonsin's main source of business are specialty trans oils like Porsche PDK gearbox oils, Audi ATF's (A1 fluid) and hydraulic system products like the CHF 11and 202. Not much of an engine oil company.

 

[gryffinwings]

Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


In that context, Fuchs and Motul are both set apart from that group as they carry extensive OEM approvals across a wide range of products. When I think of boutique I subsequently do not think of these brand. In my mind, these are in a separate category of "premium blenders" which are not of the same scale as perhaps Valvoline, but that is because they don't cater to the lower tier conventional oil market.



Yes. They are positioned as "premium" brands with most premium specifications accounted for (I tend to key on Porsche A40. I don't own one but, to me, if it can handle aircooled it's OK by me). Don't know about Fuchs but Motul produces their own alcohol-based esters so perhaps they exceed the "blender" title but I agree with your point.


Gryffinwings - I noticed you mentioning quarts in one of the earlier posts. Note that Motul is in 5 liter jugs so when evaluating price for price remember you need to do a liter-quart conversion and, in addition, don't be tripped up by gallon vs. 5 liter jugs.

Recently my daughter had been running low on oil in the 2006 Civic SI. Looking back at the invoices part of the problem seems to have been that there were times when an oil change shop (I know, I know...) would refill with 5 QUARTS or worse, sometimes with 1 Gallon. The SI takes 5.8 quarts which is more or less equal to 5 liters. So sometimes she was starting almost 1 or two quarts low. And THEN she doesn't check it for 5,000 miles! I can get her the 5 liter Motul jugs for $35 or so and ship it to her place. Job done.


I stand corrected, here's my correction.

Mobil 1 10w30 High Mileage is 5 quarts = 4.73 Liters = $22.80 USD at Walmart
Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40 is 5 Liters = 5.28 Quarts = $44.95 USD at ECS Tuning plus $20 dollars shipping
Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40 at 5 Liters + 1 Liter = 6.34 Quarts = $54.90 with free shipping at ECS Tuning.

However please let me know where you are getting Motul for $35 dollars, that's pretty good price in my opinion.


Nevermind I found a better price on amazon. Here's a link:

Amazon link for Motul 8100 X-cess 5w40

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Generally when people think of boutique oils they think of products that don't carry OEM approvals. It has only been in recent years that AMSOIL has pursued the OEM approval line as a blender, Redline doesn't cater to that market at all and neither does Royal Purple, no matter who are now their parent companies.

Believe it or not, RP provides a fully licensed dexos1 product. Of course, with dexos1 Gen 2 coming out, that's a reset button, but that's another matter.