12 ga,,,good choice, but I have been on the receiving end of a 410 shotgun,,,guess what,,it hurts, it really hurts. No, I was not hit in a vital spot, but let me tell you first hand, it would have killed me, (((( do not think for a moment that a 410 won't send an intruder to the promised land,,,it will)))) Head shot, face or chest,,,if u think a 410 is a sissy gun,,,have a buddy shoot you in the arm at 2o feet. It will make you cry and yell in pain...
Bought my girlfriend a Mossberg.
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A 410 has an extremely tight pattern by nature of it's long shot column coming out of a smaller bore diameter.
If you have a 410 with #5 shot in it, Full Choke, you can hit a rabbit with a fairly tight pattern to the 40 yard mark.
410s are surprising. They are still extremely loud but don't kick much at all even in a single shot.
If you have a 410 with #5 shot in it, Full Choke, you can hit a rabbit with a fairly tight pattern to the 40 yard mark.
410s are surprising. They are still extremely loud but don't kick much at all even in a single shot.
What are the stand your ground laws in your state? Are there any? I live in NY ... I wouldn't imagine shooting a home invader. Even though my apartment windows are on the second floor, I would have to jump out - otherwise I'd be put in the back of the patrol car right next to the home invader.
Seems like there would be a lot of collateral damage from using a shotgun. I was debating getting a .22 or something for home defense because of some bad stuff in my neighborhood. Ultimately, NYS screwed up laws and the fear of it spreading into a neighbor's apartment stopped me from doing that.
Good move on being proactive! Hopefully just pointing the gun at someone is all they need to stop screwing around.
Seems like there would be a lot of collateral damage from using a shotgun. I was debating getting a .22 or something for home defense because of some bad stuff in my neighborhood. Ultimately, NYS screwed up laws and the fear of it spreading into a neighbor's apartment stopped me from doing that.
Good move on being proactive! Hopefully just pointing the gun at someone is all they need to stop screwing around.
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
It's a 12 gauge, not a 4-10. Get low brass bird shot 2 and 3/4 inch (not the more powerfull 3 inch) like number 7 or even 9 if you can find it, or a similar round that someone would use for skeet shooting. It will not kick her on her tail end, and she will stil be standing for a second shot if it is required. Anything short of 50 feet and bird shot from a low brass 12 gauge shell is going to be leathal to ANYONE, even a NFL linebacker. BUT, the bird shot will be the quickest to stop with the least amount of penatration of other trailers. If you get something like 00 buck shot, shure it will bring down a moose or a bear, but it will also go throug the trailers behind the thug and take out a couple of her neighbors.
I think you should reevaluate your stance on bird shot. While anything on down to a pellet gun can be lethal, bird shot lacks the ability to consistently and reliably penetrate far enough to stop the threat. If it can't do that, then it's of no good for home defense. It's an unfortunate fact that if a load (any load - pistol, rifle or scatter gun) can't penetrate some drywall, then it can't penetrate the bad guy well enough to reliably stop him. Reliable is very important here, because it's your life on the line.
Worth noting here is that some bad guys may very well be deterred by the mere sound of the slide racking, and head for the hills. Others may be convinced to give it up after receiving a face or chest full of bird shot. Some, however may not, and keep coming if they're able. That's where reliable comes in. If you've made the decision to shoot, then don't pull your punches. The law will only see deadly weapon. Protect your self and family with something proven and deal with the ramifications (if any) later.
It's a 12 gauge, not a 4-10. Get low brass bird shot 2 and 3/4 inch (not the more powerfull 3 inch) like number 7 or even 9 if you can find it, or a similar round that someone would use for skeet shooting. It will not kick her on her tail end, and she will stil be standing for a second shot if it is required. Anything short of 50 feet and bird shot from a low brass 12 gauge shell is going to be leathal to ANYONE, even a NFL linebacker. BUT, the bird shot will be the quickest to stop with the least amount of penatration of other trailers. If you get something like 00 buck shot, shure it will bring down a moose or a bear, but it will also go throug the trailers behind the thug and take out a couple of her neighbors.
I think you should reevaluate your stance on bird shot. While anything on down to a pellet gun can be lethal, bird shot lacks the ability to consistently and reliably penetrate far enough to stop the threat. If it can't do that, then it's of no good for home defense. It's an unfortunate fact that if a load (any load - pistol, rifle or scatter gun) can't penetrate some drywall, then it can't penetrate the bad guy well enough to reliably stop him. Reliable is very important here, because it's your life on the line.
Worth noting here is that some bad guys may very well be deterred by the mere sound of the slide racking, and head for the hills. Others may be convinced to give it up after receiving a face or chest full of bird shot. Some, however may not, and keep coming if they're able. That's where reliable comes in. If you've made the decision to shoot, then don't pull your punches. The law will only see deadly weapon. Protect your self and family with something proven and deal with the ramifications (if any) later.
I've lived in more than one trailer. She should be carrying a pistol at all times, or at least have one very nearby.
Trailers aren't the best place to attempt maneuvering a long gun under stressful attack conditions.
Use buck shot if you can't get a pistol. Don't go with bird shot. Getting hit with a small pellet will not incapacitate.
$.02
Whatever you choose, ensure immediate and ongoing training as this sounds like a a short waiting game. If you get a gun you need to have decided you can kill someone. If you think you may need to kill someone, you'd better be trained enough to be able to do the deed under the conditions it is likely to happen in. Trainng is key. Be good at it, not just know how to pull a trigger.
Trailers aren't the best place to attempt maneuvering a long gun under stressful attack conditions.
Use buck shot if you can't get a pistol. Don't go with bird shot. Getting hit with a small pellet will not incapacitate.
$.02
Whatever you choose, ensure immediate and ongoing training as this sounds like a a short waiting game. If you get a gun you need to have decided you can kill someone. If you think you may need to kill someone, you'd better be trained enough to be able to do the deed under the conditions it is likely to happen in. Trainng is key. Be good at it, not just know how to pull a trigger.
Originally Posted By: Sequoiasoon
Batteryjunction.com has many different flashlights and weapon mount versions. They also have some that have the pressure switch that mounts on trigger. No separate turn light on thing. Finger on trigger=light is on. Much easier when aiming in a hurry.
True, but the target MUST be ID'ed prior to putting your finger on the trigger. Let's face it, who the heck has the ability in a situation like that, to put JUST ENOUGH trigger pressure upon the trigger to activate the light but not to discharge the shotgun? I don't & I have been at this for years upon years. A brand new shooter, terrified in the dark, is going to be pulling the dang trigger for all she's worth, I would expect. I se no purpose in illuminating your target AS you shoot him/her...
To take it to an admitted extreme, what's the point in seeing the look on your daughter's face as you kill her? Yes, that's extreme but it is not meant to antagonise or inflame this thread - just pointing a possible result of such a device. Some fear the use of a light as it gives away their position. Well, let's stick to the purpose at hand - a lady is hoping to be able to defend herself from an attacker who is breaking into her trailer while she's in it. YOU WANT THEM TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE THERE W/ A SHOTGUN, YOU SEE THEM & INTEND TO USE IT, ON THEM!
There are many valid points of view on the merits of searching w/ a weapon-mounted light. Fair enough. Again, let's stick to the OP's needs. She's in her own trailer during a break-in. She's not a peace officer searching a warehouse for some kids hiding during a B & E. Anybody breaking into her trailer in the middle of the night "has it comin,'" I would assert.
Do it right or don't do it. This is too serious to go at it w/ half measures & anything less than 100% committment.
John.
Batteryjunction.com has many different flashlights and weapon mount versions. They also have some that have the pressure switch that mounts on trigger. No separate turn light on thing. Finger on trigger=light is on. Much easier when aiming in a hurry.
True, but the target MUST be ID'ed prior to putting your finger on the trigger. Let's face it, who the heck has the ability in a situation like that, to put JUST ENOUGH trigger pressure upon the trigger to activate the light but not to discharge the shotgun? I don't & I have been at this for years upon years. A brand new shooter, terrified in the dark, is going to be pulling the dang trigger for all she's worth, I would expect. I se no purpose in illuminating your target AS you shoot him/her...
To take it to an admitted extreme, what's the point in seeing the look on your daughter's face as you kill her? Yes, that's extreme but it is not meant to antagonise or inflame this thread - just pointing a possible result of such a device. Some fear the use of a light as it gives away their position. Well, let's stick to the purpose at hand - a lady is hoping to be able to defend herself from an attacker who is breaking into her trailer while she's in it. YOU WANT THEM TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE THERE W/ A SHOTGUN, YOU SEE THEM & INTEND TO USE IT, ON THEM!
There are many valid points of view on the merits of searching w/ a weapon-mounted light. Fair enough. Again, let's stick to the OP's needs. She's in her own trailer during a break-in. She's not a peace officer searching a warehouse for some kids hiding during a B & E. Anybody breaking into her trailer in the middle of the night "has it comin,'" I would assert.
Do it right or don't do it. This is too serious to go at it w/ half measures & anything less than 100% committment.
John.
Tom NJ
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If she has to shoot at someone in a panic, you must assume that some of the pellets will miss their target - even trained police officers miss with half of their shots. Buckshot will easily pass through her trailer, as well as the trailer behind her and possibly the one behind that. She is responsible for every pellet that leaves the gun, so you should take into account the safety of others in the area. This is also true for people living in apartments or housing developments, especially if children are in the house. OO buck can pass through as many as six interior walls.
At the close range inside a trailer, birdshot is very effective while reducing the danger and liability for missed pellets
Tom NJ
At the close range inside a trailer, birdshot is very effective while reducing the danger and liability for missed pellets
Tom NJ
Birdshot does not penetrate enough to put down a human being with any sort of reliability. Sure they may bleed out eventually, but that along with adrenaline involved will keep him going for many many minutes.
My friend was a police officer in Richmond california. He saw someone take both barrels of a 12ga side by side to the chest with birdshot. It looked terrible, but did not hit a major organ and the guy walked to the ambulance. You need something more than birdshot to penetrate far enough to reach vital organs, and anything that is going to do that will go through walls if you miss.
My friend was a police officer in Richmond california. He saw someone take both barrels of a 12ga side by side to the chest with birdshot. It looked terrible, but did not hit a major organ and the guy walked to the ambulance. You need something more than birdshot to penetrate far enough to reach vital organs, and anything that is going to do that will go through walls if you miss.
Good on you for thinking ahead. If you are concerned about legal ramifications of self-defense, a course from a legit gun school will give her the straight dope pertinent to locale. I have engaged a attorney to find out what will really happen if I have to shoot an intruder. It was money well spent, and I have confidence that if I need representation, he's competent for the job. Get an attorney that has done criminal work; no offense to anyone but a tax attorney won't do you much good for that. One other point: practice must become an on-going process. There is no end until there is no gun in the house anymore. That should be the fifth gun law, IMO.
#4, #1, or 00 buckshot ONLY, and preferably low recoil. Winchester, Fiochi, Federal, and Remington all make good low recoil buck shot. I would use #4 buckshot personally based on the fact that it is a trailer park and the walls of the trailers are extremely thin and need to be minimize collateral damage to the neighbors.
Contrary to popular belief, the 12 GA shotgun is not a good starter gun. It is one of the hardest guns to master to proficiency, takes a lot of training, is slow to reload, and jams easily/often when short stroked by untrained operators.
I think a 4-6 inch barrel .38 special, Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm, or Glock 17 would have been a better starter gun.
Teach her to rack the shotgun hard. Have a practice drill where she slams the action to the rear, and then slams the action forward to the closed position. The shotgun wont break and needs to be man handled with authority otherwise you are likely to induce a jam. Most new shotgun users baby the slide and have problems.
Contrary to popular belief, the 12 GA shotgun is not a good starter gun. It is one of the hardest guns to master to proficiency, takes a lot of training, is slow to reload, and jams easily/often when short stroked by untrained operators.
I think a 4-6 inch barrel .38 special, Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm, or Glock 17 would have been a better starter gun.
Teach her to rack the shotgun hard. Have a practice drill where she slams the action to the rear, and then slams the action forward to the closed position. The shotgun wont break and needs to be man handled with authority otherwise you are likely to induce a jam. Most new shotgun users baby the slide and have problems.
My friend got his girlfriend one of those Kel Tec Sub2000 carbines. Takes glock 9mm mags, folds compact, and is low recoil. That would be a good starter gun.
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My gun has 00 in it but I'm on 10 acres and my walls are concrete over chicken wire . I have a bunch of #6. How would that do for her?
At close range bird shot will still have a small pattern, a very small pattern.
If you do not think bird shot is leathal at close range, shoot a one gallon jug filled with water with bird shot at close range, you will blow it away.
If you do not think bird shot is leathal at close range, shoot a one gallon jug filled with water with bird shot at close range, you will blow it away.
I went digging through my arsenal. I have plenty of 00 and I found some #4 too
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
At close range bird shot will still have a small pattern, a very small pattern.
If you do not think bird shot is leathal at close range, shoot a one gallon jug filled with water with bird shot at close range, you will blow it away.
A jug of water is a poor substitute for flesh since water is much less dense. Shoot that same jug with one of those Glaser rounds, it will make a mess of just one jug, but it wont go very far in ballistics gel. The birdshot would need to go through multiple jugs of water to be a good stopper. You can see it on the Box o Truth. If it goes deep enough to kill, it will go through sheetrock walls.
At close range bird shot will still have a small pattern, a very small pattern.
If you do not think bird shot is leathal at close range, shoot a one gallon jug filled with water with bird shot at close range, you will blow it away.
A jug of water is a poor substitute for flesh since water is much less dense. Shoot that same jug with one of those Glaser rounds, it will make a mess of just one jug, but it wont go very far in ballistics gel. The birdshot would need to go through multiple jugs of water to be a good stopper. You can see it on the Box o Truth. If it goes deep enough to kill, it will go through sheetrock walls.
I once shot a rabbit at close range with a 20 Gauge with bird shot. I literally blew a hole through that rabbit.
Think about the longest range she might have to shoot an intruder at, and then set up some one gallon (or any other size if you don't have one gallon ones) plastic jugs filled with watter, and shoot them with the bird shot. It will blow them away, big time.
At the close range she will be dealing with, bird shot gives much more leathal hitting ability than most people think, yet is will be MUCH safer for the neighbors.
Think about the longest range she might have to shoot an intruder at, and then set up some one gallon (or any other size if you don't have one gallon ones) plastic jugs filled with watter, and shoot them with the bird shot. It will blow them away, big time.
At the close range she will be dealing with, bird shot gives much more leathal hitting ability than most people think, yet is will be MUCH safer for the neighbors.
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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
Here is birdhot that wont go through a second wall but the shotcup would. Shows just how fast the small pellets lose their energy.
Rabbits internal organs are much closer to the surface than a human. There is a reason police departments dont use bird shot. They used to shoot pigs to test a rounds lethality because it was the closest to a human they could get.
Here is birdhot that wont go through a second wall but the shotcup would. Shows just how fast the small pellets lose their energy.
Rabbits internal organs are much closer to the surface than a human. There is a reason police departments dont use bird shot. They used to shoot pigs to test a rounds lethality because it was the closest to a human they could get.
I was shot in the back at very close range (probably less than 10 feet) with a .410 shotgun while in Boy Scouts. Another boy "accidentally" picked it up, aimed it at me, and pulled the trigger.
It was loaded with "turkey shot" according to the Scout Master. (Whatever that is.)
Very few of the pellets got through my leather jacket and Scout uniform, and those that did Dad was able to easily scrape out with his pocket knife. I would compare it to road rash, except road rash from falling off my bike was always bloodier and more painful.
I'm sure it would have been a lot worse had I not been wearing the jacket but I'll never be able to trust my life to .410, especially any kind of bird shot.
It was loaded with "turkey shot" according to the Scout Master. (Whatever that is.)
Very few of the pellets got through my leather jacket and Scout uniform, and those that did Dad was able to easily scrape out with his pocket knife. I would compare it to road rash, except road rash from falling off my bike was always bloodier and more painful.
I'm sure it would have been a lot worse had I not been wearing the jacket but I'll never be able to trust my life to .410, especially any kind of bird shot.
I've killed a hog with #8 low brass at 10ft...
No cracked out human being is going to have thicker skin and be harder to put down than a feral boar.
Is it ideal, negative. Is birdshot a nonlethal round in a trailer...yes from one end to the other. But if you fire once at 60ft and the person keeps coming...a second shot at less than 10 feet to the upper torso is putting anyone down.
I see these debates about ammo choices whenever any gun comes up. Buckshot would be ideal. But in all honestly, shot placement trumps everything.
A +p+ 9mm powerball round fired between the collar bones will be infinitely more lethal than a .45 hollowpoint to the upper right lung.
I have a glock19 and a streamlight for in the house...but I prefer to have an HD shotgun on hand...and there is a maverick88 7ft from me.
No cracked out human being is going to have thicker skin and be harder to put down than a feral boar.
Is it ideal, negative. Is birdshot a nonlethal round in a trailer...yes from one end to the other. But if you fire once at 60ft and the person keeps coming...a second shot at less than 10 feet to the upper torso is putting anyone down.
I see these debates about ammo choices whenever any gun comes up. Buckshot would be ideal. But in all honestly, shot placement trumps everything.
A +p+ 9mm powerball round fired between the collar bones will be infinitely more lethal than a .45 hollowpoint to the upper right lung.
I have a glock19 and a streamlight for in the house...but I prefer to have an HD shotgun on hand...and there is a maverick88 7ft from me.
Originally Posted By: SuzukiGoat
But if you fire once at 60ft and the person keeps coming...a second shot at less than 10 feet to the upper torso is putting anyone down.
Not true. Several reports of people with leather coats or heavy winter jackets being unaffected by birdshot, including a person in THIS VERY THREAD that was shot with birdshot at close range.
Bird shot may stop an aggressor 90% of the time, but I use ammo that is effective 99% of the time with proper shot placement, which is buckshot or slugs out of a shotgun.
But if you fire once at 60ft and the person keeps coming...a second shot at less than 10 feet to the upper torso is putting anyone down.
Not true. Several reports of people with leather coats or heavy winter jackets being unaffected by birdshot, including a person in THIS VERY THREAD that was shot with birdshot at close range.
Bird shot may stop an aggressor 90% of the time, but I use ammo that is effective 99% of the time with proper shot placement, which is buckshot or slugs out of a shotgun.
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