BMW B58 0W-12?

[chris719]

CAFE.

Why would TU1 show acceptable and not TU2? CAFE doesn’t work like that, it’s what they deliver vehicles with that matters. They could easily allow old LL01 in the manual without a penalty.

I agree it’s just them removing the old though, not because it’s unsuitable. Perhaps they didn’t repeat their qualification tests with LL01.

 

[chris719]

Who wants to try it

https://www.schmiedmann.com/en/product/e4667641-new?product=83-21-5-A65-BA3

 

[edyvw]

Why would TU1 show acceptable and not TU2? CAFE doesn’t work like that, it’s what they deliver vehicles with that matters. They could easily allow old LL01 in the manual without a penalty.

I agree it’s just them removing the old though, not because it’s unsuitable. Perhaps they didn’t repeat their qualification tests with LL01.

It works. They were probably testing LL22 for some time to get it in.
Why no LL01? Bcs. it is BMW. Oil recommendation inconsistency is their expertise.

 

[chris719]

It works. They were probably testing LL22 for some time to get it in.
Why no LL01? Bcs. it is BMW. Oil recommendation inconsistency is their expertise.

TU2 has some significant changes. It is quite interesting. It appears to have added port injectors and completely electronic VANOS.

 

[edyvw]

TU2 has some significant changes. It is quite interesting. It appears to have added port injectors and completely electronic VANOS.

Doesn’t have to be related to oil.
Generally, EPA won’t issue certain numbers if there is way to get around that recommendation. So, start/stop system has to recycle whenever you start vehicle automatically, otherwise they don’t get that 1mpg. Same goes for oil recommendations. Toyota uses very vague language like “under high stress blah, blah,” but at least it is there. BMW probably made a case for LL01FE to be used, but LL01 would be pushing it. CAFE IMO is ridiculous way to do this. But, here we are.

 

[chris719]

Doesn’t have to be related to oil.
Generally, EPA won’t issue certain numbers if there is way to get around that recommendation. So, start/stop system has to recycle whenever you start vehicle automatically, otherwise they don’t get that 1mpg. Same goes for oil recommendations. Toyota uses very vague language like “under high stress blah, blah,” but at least it is there. BMW probably made a case for LL01FE to be used, but LL01 would be pushing it. CAFE IMO is ridiculous way to do this. But, here we are.

Yeah, I have no idea if any changes were made that would affect oil selection. There is a second generation IROX bearing coating, perhaps they have started using it. Time will tell as always.

 

[edyvw]

Yeah, I have no idea if any changes were made that would affect oil selection. There is a second generation IROX bearing coating, perhaps they have started using it. Time will tell as always.

There is no problem using LL01. As with all engines, cold oil is much thicker and still engines are regularly pushed hard when cold.

 

[chris719]

There is no problem using LL01. As with all engines, cold oil is much thicker and still engines are regularly pushed hard when cold.

I didn’t say there was. Just speculating on why 0W-12 is safe now apparently.

 

[edyvw]

I didn’t say there was. Just speculating on why 0W-12 is safe now apparently.

They will push limits. Different materials play role too.
The question is: what is the lifespan that BMW (or any other company) thinks it is appropriate?

 

[Alien]

Why would TU1 show acceptable and not TU2? CAFE doesn’t work like that, it’s what they deliver vehicles with that matters. They could easily allow old LL01 in the manual without a penalty.

I agree it’s just them removing the old though, not because it’s unsuitable. Perhaps they didn’t repeat their qualification tests with LL01.

Note that BMW's LL01 FE now claims to meet SP requirements, while their LL01 makes no such claim. Since Castrol's LL17 FE+ also claims to meet SP requirements, and they are BMW's supplier, I expect that the BMW branded version to soon make that claim as well once BMW has worked through their inventory of non-SP LL17 FE+. It will be interesting to see if the new LL22 FE++ will make a similar claim.

 

[bigjl]

Is your vehicle a hybrid?

The only thing I can think of is a new hybrid spec. There has been some talk about a new BMW spec.

The user manual is written to cover all vehicles and may not reflect new or minor variances in drivetrains such as hybrid. You could always call your dealer.

The 21 model year 745 Hybrid takes 0w20, 5w20 in the newest spec.

But can also run LL04

I think dealers in the UK use 0w20

Never seen a 0w12 oil yet in the UK.

I wonder what differences there are between the 21 model year and 23 model year B58 engines?

Will find out when my car gets its first service under my ownership in a few weeks

 

[edyvw]

Note that BMW's LL01 FE now claims to meet SP requirements, while their LL01 makes no such claim. Since Castrol's LL17 FE+ also claims to meet SP requirements, and they are BMW's supplier, I expect that the BMW branded version to soon make that claim as well once BMW has worked through their inventory of non-SP LL17 FE+. It will be interesting to see if the new LL22 FE++ will make a similar claim.

BMW TPT 5W30 LL01 cannot be anything but API SL!

 

[Alien]

BMW TPT 5W30 LL01 cannot be anything but API SL!

Probably true. But I was surprised that they reformulated BMW TPT 0W30 LL01 FE to meet the API SP spec.

Motul now claims API SP and ILSAC GF-SA certification in addition to LL17 FE ++ for its Motul 8100 Eco-Clean 0W20 product. Per its tech sheet: "API SP standard provides higher performance and protection against LSPI phenomenon for downsized direct injection turbocharged gasoline engines. Based on the API SP specification, the ILSAC GF-6a standard for viscosity grade 20 lubricants is even more severe especially on the Fuel Economy benefits performance. The requirements on the low viscosity "Fuel Economy" side of the lubricant, but also extended drain intervals, pistons/rings cleanliness, seals compatibility and reduced content of Phosphorus for after treatment systems compatibility are enhanced. The ILSAC GF-6a specification also ensures perfect engine protection when gasoline containing up to 85% Ethanol is used (E85)." Their previous SN Plus version featured a starburst on the bottle, so I assume the new SP version will be getting one as well. That puts it on par, certification wise, with Liqui Moly Top Tec 6600 0W20, and I don't think LM features a starburst yet either.

 

[edyvw]

Probably true. But I was surprised that they reformulated BMW TPT 0W30 LL01 FE to meet the API SP spec.

Motul now claims API SP and ILSAC GF-SA certification in addition to LL17 FE ++ for its Motul 8100 Eco-Clean 0W20 product. Per its tech sheet: "API SP standard provides higher performance and protection against LSPI phenomenon for downsized direct injection turbocharged gasoline engines. Based on the API SP specification, the ILSAC GF-6a standard for viscosity grade 20 lubricants is even more severe especially on the Fuel Economy benefits performance. The requirements on the low viscosity "Fuel Economy" side of the lubricant, but also extended drain intervals, pistons/rings cleanliness, seals compatibility and reduced content of Phosphorus for after treatment systems compatibility are enhanced. The ILSAC GF-6a specification also ensures perfect engine protection when gasoline containing up to 85% Ethanol is used (E85)." Their previous SN Plus version featured a starburst on the bottle, so I assume the new SP version will be getting one as well. That puts it on par, certification wise, with Liqui Moly Top Tec 6600 0W20, and I don't think LM features a starburst yet either.

It is not probably true. It is true. API has phosphorous limit on 5W30 oils and to be LL01, you need higher level of phosphorus than what API limit is for SM and later in that grade.

As for other approvals, you are mixing apples and oranges. BMW had TPT 0W40 that was API SN and LL01. That is bcs. limits for phosphorus in XW40 are different by API.

Not sure why are you stuck on API. It is irrelevant.

 

[Alien]

It is not probably true. It is true. API has phosphorous limit on 5W30 oils and to be LL01, you need higher level of phosphorus than what API limit is for SM and later in that grade.

As for other approvals, you are mixing apples and oranges. BMW had TPT 0W40 that was API SN and LL01. That is bcs. limits for phosphorus in XW40 are different by API.

Not sure why are you stuck on API. It is irrelevant.

Apparently Motul, Liqui Moly, and BMW don't think it is irrelevant. That is why they went to the trouble and expense of making their oils certifiable as API SP. I think that the Motul PDS that I excerpted above does a good job (making allowances for probably being translated text) of explaining what the benefits are of being API SP and Ilsac GF-6a certified, don't you? It works for me, at least: these are the things I am looking for to protect my BMW.

 

[edyvw]

Apparently Motul, Liqui Moly, and BMW don't think it is irrelevant. That is why they went to the trouble and expense of making their oils certifiable as API SP. I think that the Motul PDS that I excerpted above does a good job (making allowances for probably being translated text) of explaining what the benefits are of being API SP and Ilsac GF-6a certified, don't you? It works for me, at least: these are the things I am looking for to protect my BMW.

No I don’t think it is relevant:
1. Those oils meet API criteria. I am really not sure does API have approval process. They can put on bottle anything that provides certain information. If engine manufacturer (Honda for example) requires API SP, you can then use that oil. BMW DOES NOT care about API requirements!!! It is absolutely irrelevant if you own BMW!
2. Oils you talk about from Motul etc. have different limits. Therefore they are API SP. ILSAC GF6 is energy conserving and BMW absolutely does not care about ILSAC GF6. But Motul and Liqui Moly want to sell as much oil as they can, as that is their main business, so they will try to make oils as accessible for consumers as possible.

But, AGAIN, you own BMW? Forget API or ILSAC!

 

[Mazomopar]

Jeepers, why not spec it for straight 0wor straight 12w and get it overwith..

 

[slo town]

If in doubt ALWAYS go by the owner’s manual. That authenticates BMW’s recommendation. An under hood sticker could be put on by mistake or by a prankster. The owner’s manual is the gospel compared to a sticker or oil filler cap.

Scott

 

[Alien]

If in doubt ALWAYS go by the owner’s manual. That authenticates BMW’s recommendation. An under hood sticker could be put on by mistake or by a prankster. The owner’s manual is the gospel compared to a sticker or oil filler cap.

Scott

I agree. My owner's manual recommends an oil meeting the BMW LL17 FE ++ standard, so that is what I want to use. I was thrilled to see that more oil companies are now offering products that meet that standard and also meet other important standards such as API SP and ILSAC GF-6A. Now Liqui Moly, Castrol, and Motul are offering products that do, and Motul offered a very nice explanation of why it should be important to the buyers. The purpose of my post was to let others who are like me know that Motul now is part of that club as well and may even soon be allowed to sport the API trademarked starburst symbol on their bottles (as they have in the past) showing their certification. I'm excited about that.

BTW, I am purely a buyer and enthusiast and have no association with any automotive or oil company.

 

[edyvw]

I agree. My owner's manual recommends an oil meeting the BMW LL17 FE ++ standard, so that is what I want to use. I was thrilled to see that more oil companies are now offering products that meet that standard and also meet other important standards such as API SP and ILSAC GF-6A. Now Liqui Moly, Castrol, and Motul are offering products that do, and Motul offered a very nice explanation of why it should be important to the buyers. The purpose of my post was to let others who are like me know that Motul now is part of that club as well and may even soon be allowed to sport the API trademarked starburst symbol on their bottles (as they have in the past) showing their certification. I'm excited about that.

BTW, I am purely a buyer and enthusiast and have no association with any automotive or oil company.

API standards and consequently ILSAC, are not as stringent as BMW LL17. That is the point.
Your post might be misleading for some members thinking that API might matter. You can go to your local Wal Mart and find plenty API SP, ILSAC GF6 oils. But you won’t find any LL17FE.
what you refer as important, is actually “lesser” club, for lack of better word.