BMW B58 0W-12?

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API standards and consequently ILSAC, are not as stringent as BMW LL17. That is the point.
Your post might be misleading for some members thinking that API might matter. You can go to your local Wal Mart and find plenty API SP, ILSAC GF6 oils. But you won’t find any LL17FE.
what you refer as important, is actually “lesser” club, for lack of better word.
@edyvw, you are still misunderstanding me for some inexplicable reason. You are ascribing to me positions that I am not making. That is known as a red herring argument. Please stop it.

Go back and read my posts carefully, please. They do not say what you apparently think they do. I posted nothing that is in any way misleading. As a Motul customer yourself you should be as thrilled as I am that they are evolving their products to meet many of the newest standards.

There must be others on this forum who are looking for the similar features in their oils as I am (but apparently not you), and I was trying to do them a favor. That's all there is to it!
 
@edyvw, you are still misunderstanding me for some inexplicable reason. You are ascribing to me positions that I am not making. That is known as a red herring argument. Please stop it.

Go back and read my posts carefully, please. They do not say what you apparently think they do. I posted nothing that is in any way misleading. As a Motul customer yourself you should be as thrilled as I am that they are evolving their products to meet many of the newest standards.

There must be others on this forum who are looking for the similar features in their oils as I am (but apparently not you), and I was trying to do them a favor. That's all there is to it!
Excited for new standards? You do know that there is nothing new there?
Motul had before 0W20 oils that had ILSAC standards. You don’t know about it as you didn’t need 0W20 oil and you never paid attention.
When Motul writes up explanation, as they always did, that refers for vehicle that REQUIRES API SP or ILSAC. That doesn’t refer to vehicles requiring other standards.
As Motul customer (and bit more) , I couldn’t care less aboutAPI and ILSAC GF6.

My point is that unsuspecting reader might get impression that ILSAC GF6 is what they need for their BMW, VW or MB, and it couldn’t be further from truth.
 
He's saying that API doesn't matter at all for Euro cars.
I think you are right. But Euro cars do not buy the oil - I as a customer do. And meeting API SP and ILSAC GF6 testing requirements does matter to me. That is why I am excited that I can now buy oil the meets both BMW and SP/GF6 testing requirements from three different well-respected suppliers. I doubt that I am the only one. As you know, there are a lot of people in the automotive and oil industry and the standards setting boards that think the transition to API SP and ISAC GF6 is a very important transition. So, it is important to me and others like me to take full advantage of this monumental transition and buy oils that are up-to-date technologically.
 
I think you are right. But Euro cars do not buy the oil - I as a customer do. And meeting API SP and ILSAC GF6 testing requirements does matter to me. That is why I am excited that I can now buy oil the meets both BMW and SP/GF6 testing requirements from three different well-respected suppliers. I doubt that I am the only one. As you know, there are a lot of people in the automotive and oil industry and the standards setting boards that think the transition to API SP and ISAC GF6 is a very important transition. So, it is important to me and others like me to take full advantage of this monumental transition and buy oils that are up-to-date technologically.
As a BMW tech, using API and ILSAC oil is not something you want to even attempt. Just go get the BMW oil to avoid the damage your going to cause.
 
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I think you are right. But Euro cars do not buy the oil - I as a customer do. And meeting API SP and ILSAC GF6 testing requirements does matter to me. That is why I am excited that I can now buy oil the meets both BMW and SP/GF6 testing requirements from three different well-respected suppliers. I doubt that I am the only one. As you know, there are a lot of people in the automotive and oil industry and the standards setting boards that think the transition to API SP and ISAC GF6 is a very important transition. So, it is important to me and others like me to take full advantage of this monumental transition and buy oils that are up-to-date technologically.
I think monumentally that you are bit confused.
 
As a BMW tech, using API and ILSAC oil is not something you want to even attempt. Just go get the BMW oil to avoid the damage your going to cause.

He's basically saying if he had two choices of LL17+ he would rather choose the one with SP rather than SN.

Nothing wrong with that. Especially since nobody knows how the chain wear test from the automakers, in this case BMW, compares to that used in API SP and now also used for ACEA.A7/B7.

Consumer choose oils which have more than one cert all time.

People see it as a performance improvement.
 
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I think monumentally that you are bit confused.
A quick google search yielded this:

"My sources tell me that the PC-11 development cost the industry about $350 million. The recently completed API SP/GF-6 introduction came in north of $400 million. Combined, we’re looking at about three quarters of a billion dollars!" (https://www.lubesngreases.com/magazine/27_12/automotive-195/)

I don't know about you, but I think that three quarters of a billion dollars qualifies as "monumental".
 
He's basically saying if he had two choices of LL17+ he would rather choose the one with SP rather than SN.

Nothing wrong with that. Especially since nobody knows how the chain wear test from the automakers, in this case BMW, compares to that used in API SP and now also used for ACEA.A7/B7.

Consumer choose oils which have more than one cert all time.

People see it as a performance improvement.
API SP uses Toyota engine for chain test.
It is not improvement in any aspect. Let’s start from there.
What consumers see is irrelevant when one talks facts. He is thinking there is some shift toward ILSAC. Problem is his basic misunderstanding of this subject, and he is not interested to do basic reading on it. But, pretends he knows.
 
A quick google search yielded this:

"My sources tell me that the PC-11 development cost the industry about $350 million. The recently completed API SP/GF-6 introduction came in north of $400 million. Combined, we’re looking at about three quarters of a billion dollars!" (https://www.lubesngreases.com/magazine/27_12/automotive-195/)

I don't know about you, but I think that three quarters of a billion dollars qualifies as "monumental".
There are numerous big investors in businesses, that don’t have anything to do with you.
You are monumentally confused. Go do basic reading on this subject if you want to keep posting something that might be taken as “advice” by someone.
 
There are numerous big investors in businesses, that don’t have anything to do with you.
You are monumentally confused. Go do basic reading on this subject if you want to keep posting something that might be taken as “advice” by someone.
I don't see why I should not want to take advantage of something that cost three quarters of a billion dollars to develop.

@BMWTurboDzl summarized what I am trying to say correctly. It's that simple. You are reading way too much into this.
 
I don't see why I should not want to take advantage of something that cost three quarters of a billion dollars to develop.

@BMWTurboDzl summarized what I am trying to say it correctly. It's that simple. You are reading way too much into this.
Advantage? What advantage?
Tell us in which requirements ILSAC GF6 is more stringent than TPT 0W20 LL17FE?
From get go, LL17 is more stringent, therefore meets ILSAC GF requirements.
Do you understand that? There is NOTHING that blenders have to do to meet that requirement.
Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 API SN+ was relabeled API SP without changing chemistry of oil. Why? Because it far exceeds API standards already.
You are talking standards that are SUBPAR to any, ANY BMW standard.
You as customer can buy Extra Virgin Olive Oil from Costco and use that priviliga that Costco is multibillion dollars company, as far as I am concerned.
But, those are not facts when it comes to this topic.
 
Advantage? What advantage?
Tell us in which requirements ILSAC GF6 is more stringent than TPT 0W20 LL17FE?
Well, let's have a look at the Motul PDS that I posted previously. It says: "The ILSAC GF-6a specification also ensures perfect engine protection when gasoline containing up to 85% Ethanol is used (E85)."

My understanding is that ACEA sequences do not test for the impact of ethanol, since it is not a factor in European gas. To bring the oil up to ILSAC GF-6a standards, Motul had to pass tests involving gasohol. Since the gas I use here contains up to 10% ethanol, that is important to me, and I see that as an advantage.
 
From get go, LL17 is more stringent, therefore meets ILSAC GF requirements.
Some people will say "@edyvw, an annonimous contributor on BITOG, says that any oil meeting LL17 standards also meets API SP and ILSAC GF-6A standards. That's good enough for me." Others will say "If they meet the API and ILSAC standards, let them prove it by doing the tests and getting certified. I will give preference to those that are able to prove themselves by getting certified." I'm in the latter group.
 
Well, let's have a look at the Motul PDS that I posted previously. It says: "The ILSAC GF-6a specification also ensures perfect engine protection when gasoline containing up to 85% Ethanol is used (E85)."

My understanding is that ACEA sequences do not test for the impact of ethanol, since it is not a factor in European gas. To bring the oil up to ILSAC GF-6a standards, Motul had to pass tests involving gasohol. Since the gas I use here contains up to 10% ethanol, that is important to me, and I see that as an advantage.
Ethanol is present in European gas for a LONG time. It is absolutely irrelevant as ACEA and consequently manufacturer approvals (more stringent) require stay in grade over OCI and obviously TBN and TAN control. You don’t have to have specific test, either oil can do OCI or not. If OCI Is affected by ethanol, which is not as big factor as sulphur is, for example, oil blender has to address that.
You are reading Motul’s explanation wrongly. And I have already told you that.
 
Some people will say "@edyvw, an annonimous contributor on BITOG, says that any oil meeting LL17 standards also meets API SP and ILSAC GF-6A standards. That's good enough for me." Others will say "If they meet the API and ILSAC standards, let them prove it by doing the tests and getting certified. I will give preference to those that are able to prove themselves by getting certified." I'm in the latter group.
Who are those people and why should any prove anything to you?
 
From get go, LL17 is more stringent, therefore meets ILSAC GF requirements.
You are talking standards that are SUBPAR to any, ANY BMW standard.
Also, as Gokhan reported from some recent ACEA meeting notes: “ACEA decided to adopt API valvetrain and timing-chain wear tests in their ACEA-2021 specification, but it turned out that 50% of the existing ACEA oils failed the API valvetrain test, and another 50% of the existing ACEA oils failed the API timing-chain wear test! Note that most of these oils that failed the API wear tests would carry the "strict" Euro-OEM approvals as well." It is possible that the 50% that flunked the API tests also flunked the LL17 tests, which would make your statement correct. But how do you know?
 
I'd trust the manual before I trust that sticker and I think that manual is telling you to run 0W-30.
 
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