Best oil for Porsche 991

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Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Joe Gibbs DT40. Made specifically for these cars. Full synthetic.


Yet another oil where you are given the privilege of paying (a lot) more for an oil that does not carry the specification required by the manufacturer.

What does it mean on their website where it says " *For Porsche approved lubricant we use and recommend Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40."?
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Joe Gibbs DT40. Made specifically for these cars. Full synthetic.


Yet another oil where you are given the privilege of paying (a lot) more for an oil that does not carry the specification required by the manufacturer.

What does it mean on their website where it says " *For Porsche approved lubricant we use and recommend Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40."?


Yes, but some Porsche specialists find that conventional oils are inadequate in meeting the extreme temps that these water cooled Porsche engines generate. Flat 6 Innovations(a premier Porsche specialist) & Joe Gibbs formulated this oil together,
 
Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Joe Gibbs DT40. Made specifically for these cars. Full synthetic.


Yet another oil where you are given the privilege of paying (a lot) more for an oil that does not carry the specification required by the manufacturer.

What does it mean on their website where it says " *For Porsche approved lubricant we use and recommend Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40."?


Yes, but some Porsche specialists find that conventional oils are inadequate in meeting the extreme temps that these water cooled Porsche engines generate. Flat 6 Innovations(a premier Porsche specialist) & Joe Gibbs formulated this oil together,


What is conventional oil? Please define!
 
Originally Posted By: dennishiip


Yes, but some Porsche specialists find that conventional oils are inadequate in meeting the extreme temps that these water cooled Porsche engines generate. Flat 6 Innovations(a premier Porsche specialist) & Joe Gibbs formulated this oil together,



Hello,
denniship - Application? Facts??

These engines were always specced for a synthetic lubricant and IME this is simply a Marketing ploy for a lubricant and a Shop - it's been going on for years!!!!
 
Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Yes, but some Porsche specialists find that conventional oils are inadequate in meeting the extreme temps that these water cooled Porsche engines generate. Flat 6 Innovations(a premier Porsche specialist) & Joe Gibbs formulated this oil together,


Why does it say on their website "*For Porsche approved lubricant we use and recommend Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40."?
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
These engines were always specced for a synthetic lubricant and IME this is simply a Marketing ploy for a lubricant and a Shop - it's been going on for years!!!!


When dennishiip said "conventional" he meant off-the-shelf oil that's usually used. He's not implying that GroupII basestocks should ever touch a Porsche.

As for a "ploy" as you allege, we can't underestimate Lubrizol's involvement in making DT40 work extremely well. Unless you can claim Lubrizol can't be trusted. Lubrizol does appear to have a ton of expertise and ethics.
"Both DT40 and DT50 are 100% fully synthetic motor oils based on group 4 and group 5 base oils with a proprietary additive package developed exclusively for Joe Gibbs by Lubrizol and is not sold or marketed under any other name or brand. " http://lnengineering.com/joe-gibbs-racin...-12-quarts.html

In comparison, M1 0w-40 is a mix of Group 3 and PAO, with some Group 5 mixed in as far as I know. Some see the use of Group 3 as a cost compromise that shouldn't be there.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Why does it say on their website "*For Porsche approved lubricant we use and recommend Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40."?
Warranty purposes on newer engines. That said, they could also be simply noting Motul makes a great choice here.
 
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Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
These engines were always specced for a synthetic lubricant and IME this is simply a Marketing ploy for a lubricant and a Shop - it's been going on for years!!!!


When dennishiip said "conventional" he meant off-the-shelf oil that's usually used. He's not implying that GroupII basestocks should ever touch a Porsche.

As for a "ploy" as you allege, we can't underestimate Lubrizol's involvement in making DT40 work extremely well. Unless you can claim Lubrizol can't be trusted. Lubrizol does appear to have a ton of expertise and ethics.
"Both DT40 and DT50 are 100% fully synthetic motor oils based on group 4 and group 5 base oils with a proprietary additive package developed exclusively for Joe Gibbs by Lubrizol and is not sold or marketed under any other name or brand. " http://lnengineering.com/joe-gibbs-racin...-12-quarts.html

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Why does it say on their website "*For Porsche approved lubricant we use and recommend Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40."?
Warranty purposes on newer engines. That said, they could also be simply noting Motul makes a great choice here.

So you are saying Mobil1 0W40 that is developed with Porsche and used as first fill is not "appropriate" oil?
Oil approval is very cheap thing, so i would say Joe Gibbs knows he will not get one!
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw

So you are saying Mobil1 0W40 that is developed with Porsche and used as first fill is not "appropriate" oil?
Oil approval is very cheap thing, so i would say Joe Gibbs knows he will not get one!


In comparison, M1 0w-40 is a mix of Group 3 and PAO, with some Group 5 mixed in as far as I know. Some see the use of Group 3 as a cost compromise that shouldn't be there. DT40 and I believe the Motul has only PAO and Group 5, so its considered tougher.

Cheap to get A40? Cheap for Exxon Mobil, certainly expensive for Joe Gibbs.
It all comes down to trusting Lubrizol to make a better oil without being forced to use Group 3 as Mobil1 did.
 
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Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: edyvw

So you are saying Mobil1 0W40 that is developed with Porsche and used as first fill is not "appropriate" oil?
Oil approval is very cheap thing, so i would say Joe Gibbs knows he will not get one!


In comparison, M1 0w-40 is a mix of Group 3 and PAO, with some Group 5 mixed in as far as I know. Some see the use of Group 3 as a cost compromise that shouldn't be there. DT40 and I believe the Motul has only PAO and Group 5, so its considered tougher.

Cheap to get A40? Cheap for Exxon Mobil, certainly expensive for Joe Gibbs.
It all comes down to trusting Lubrizol to make a better oil without being forced to use Group 3 as Mobil1 did.

Well, I worked on certification of oils, and average American can swing certification from two average salaries.
That is B S spread around from companies that are not certifying their oils that it is expensive.
In Europe you have numerous small oil manufacturers that have all ACEA and Euro mfg. certifications.
And as for M1: so what? Motul X-Cess is PAO, but numbers and stay in grade is much worse then M1 0W40. The point is to have great final product. Castrol 0W40 is PAO oil with addition of GrV, and it is approved, and it is regularly available in stores.
 
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Well, I worked on certification of oils, and average American can swing certification from two average salaries.

Did you work on Euro certs? Those are much more expensive than the ~$120k you claim, likely for SJ (???)
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Well, I worked on certification of oils, and average American can swing certification from two average salaries.

Did you work on Euro certs? Those are much more expensive than the ~$120k you claim, likely for SJ (???)

Two monthly salaries!
Yes, worked on VW 504.00/507.00, around 3,200 euros in 2011 I think. I posted pdf somewhere here.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
And as for M1: so what? Motul X-Cess is PAO, but numbers and stay in grade is much worse then M1 0W40. The point is to have great final product. Castrol 0W40 is PAO oil with addition of GrV, and it is approved, and it is regularly available in stores.


I'd be interested in any evidence Motul is worse than M1. Links? Anything?
Also, Castrol is the king of Group 3 synthetics. How do you know they don't mix in some Group 3 ?

I agree the final performance specs is a good thing to go by. In this case, Lubrizol has attempted to make something better (DT40), trust them or not, your choice. Lubrizol claims DT40 showed much better performance in the KRL test (CEC L45-A-99).
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Two monthly salaries!
Yes, worked on VW 504.00/507.00, around 3,200 euros in 2011 I think. I posted pdf somewhere here.

OK, monthly, Americans usually see "salary" and think annual by default.

Is the 3200 euros just for a fee to VW? Cost of all those tests included? Engines, lab time, etc. included? I've heard the euro tests are extensive and involve a lot of engine test stands, etc., not cheap.
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: edyvw
And as for M1: so what? Motul X-Cess is PAO, but numbers and stay in grade is much worse then M1 0W40. The point is to have great final product. Castrol 0W40 is PAO oil with addition of GrV, and it is approved, and it is regularly available in stores.


I'd be interested in any evidence Motul is worse than M1. Links? Anything?
Also, Castrol is the king of Group 3 synthetics. How do you know they don't mix in some Group 3 ?

I agree the final performance specs is a good thing to go by. In this case, Lubrizol has attempted to make something better (DT40), trust them or not, your choice. Lubrizol claims DT40 showed much better performance in the KRL test (CEC L45-A-99).

You have numerous X-Cess UOA and you can compare them to numerous M1 0W40 UOA in same engines and even same owners.
We are getting here German made Castrol, which is 50%+ PAO based because it cannot be anything less then that to be sold in Germany as Full Synthetic (M1 is sold as SHC). From manufacturing point t does not make sense to make two oils for two markets in same rafinery that are different. That oil is also sold in EU with same formula. Of course, you have numerous Castrol oils with GrIII, not disputing that.
Number on Castrol also indicates high presence of GRIV and some V.
In the end, both are A40 approved, so I would say we are more certain they will perform in Porsche good then Joe Gibbs or whatever that is not approved by Porsche.
 
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Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: edyvw

So you are saying Mobil1 0W40 that is developed with Porsche and used as first fill is not "appropriate" oil?
Oil approval is very cheap thing, so i would say Joe Gibbs knows he will not get one!


In comparison, M1 0w-40 is a mix of Group 3 and PAO, with some Group 5 mixed in as far as I know. Some see the use of Group 3 as a cost compromise that shouldn't be there. DT40 and I believe the Motul has only PAO and Group 5, so its considered tougher.

Cheap to get A40? Cheap for Exxon Mobil, certainly expensive for Joe Gibbs.
It all comes down to trusting Lubrizol to make a better oil without being forced to use Group 3 as Mobil1 did.


So if it is better, why is Porsche using M1 0w-40 at LeMans and Sebring, among other venues, in their factory race cars, (as are a pile of other teams) rather than this DT40 Unicorn Urine?

We've got two data sources for this:

1. Johnny, a former Pennzoil employee who was AT Sebring and rather surprised to see this
2. Doug Hillary who has worked for Mercedes, Porsche and a few others and noted they were using it in these applications (among other things he's shared with us regarding his talks with the Engineers from these companies).

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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

So if it is better, why is Porsche using M1 0w-40 at LeMans and Sebring, among other venues, in their factory race cars, (as are a pile of other teams) rather than this DT40 Unicorn Urine?

Wow, the marketing dept. really failed Gibbs when they chose Unicorn Urine as the name....
crackmeup2.gif


And you know race teams take money from rich ExxonMobil to run whatever gets them through the race. It could very well be that DT40 is better, if you believe Lubrizol. Trust them or choose not to.

Read Joe90_guy's posts on the tradeoffs big companies make all the time with mass produced oils. It makes you think a little about maybe identifying lower volume oils made by respected companies that have less reason to compromise cost in the recipe.
 
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Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

So if it is better, why is Porsche using M1 0w-40 at LeMans and Sebring, among other venues, in their factory race cars, (as are a pile of other teams) rather than this DT40 Unicorn Urine?

Wow, the marketing dept. really failed Gibbs when they chose Unicorn Urine as the name....
crackmeup2.gif


And you know race teams take money from rich ExxonMobil to run whatever gets them through the race. It could very well be that DT40 is better, if you believe Lubrizol. Trust them or choose not to.

[/quote]
Or, trust Porsche when it approves oils.
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus

And you know race teams take money from rich ExxonMobil to run whatever gets them through the race.


And that's just it, this off-the-shelf-product gets them through 24hr races. It is also factory approved by both parties mentioned. Imagine that
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Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
It could very well be that DT40 is better, if you believe Lubrizol. Trust them or choose not to.


Do they, Lubrizol, not Joe Gibbs, SPECIFICALLY state it is BETTER than Mobil 1 0w-40? I am certain Lubrizol is excellent. So is Infineum, which of course is owned by ExxonMobil and SOPUS. Do you believe that a company owned by the two largest oil companies in the history of the world and with an unmatched engineering and design budget is going to somehow be unable to out-engineer Joe Gibbs, who has hired Lubrizol to make his additive package?

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Read Joe90_guy's posts on the tradeoffs big companies make all the time with mass produced oils. It makes you think a little about maybe identifying lower volume oils made by respected companies that have less reason to compromise cost in the recipe.


I've read plenty of his posts. This is Mobil's flagship product in question here, not some generic GF-5 lubricant. So on that note I will give you the same advice which is to read some of Doug Hillary's extensive past posts covering WHY these approval processes exist and how much hand-in-hand development between the Euro marques and companies like BP, XOM and SOPUS happens in the industry.

I would also like you to look up the posts by bobbydavro who posts some information as to the requirements of Porsche's A40 approval (he works for Castrol).
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Do they, Lubrizol, not Joe Gibbs, SPECIFICALLY state it is BETTER than Mobil 1 0w-40? I am certain Lubrizol is excellent.

http://lnengineering.com/joe-gibbs-racin...-12-quarts.html and notice the table comparing the shear stability of DT40 vs. M1. Scroll down to the table.
I don't care if Lubrizol or Gibbs is saying it. (Actually Lubrizol doesn't market anything ever, as is well known.)
So we know DT40 Unicorn Wee has excellent Lubrizol behind it in a no-GroupIII formula. Sounds good to me.

It simply makes many suspicious when M1 is cheapening the basestocks (partly GroupIII) because somebody at exxonMobil wanted to squeeze in more profits. Why not go all PAO and Esters, like DT40 and a few others do?

As for A40, I really doubt if 3200 euros buys you all that testing. edyvw might know
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
and notice the table comparing the shear stability of DT40 vs. M1. Scroll down to the table.


I've seen the table.


Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
I don't care if Lubrizol or Gibbs is saying it. (Actually Lubrizol doesn't market anything ever, as is well known.)


Exactly my point. This is a company who has contracted another company to develop an additive package for them and is using a single test to claim their product is superior despite having absolutely zero factory approvals. It isn't the developer of the additive package claiming it is superior, it is the folks trying to sell the product.

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
So we know DT40 Unicorn Wee has excellent Lubrizol behind it in a no-GroupIII formula. Sounds good to me.


Lubrizol also makes AMSOIL's additive packages. Are we now to extend these claims to their products? Is this performance-by-proxy here? Because that's essentially what you are advocating, that by being associated with Lubrizol that by golly, these things gotta be the bees-knees!

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
It simply makes many suspicious when M1 is cheapening the basestocks (partly GroupIII) because somebody at exxonMobil wanted to squeeze in more profits. Why not go all PAO and Esters, like DT40 and a few others do?


Because they don't need to obviously. It can pass all the requisite OEM approval protocols using the base stock blend they are currently employing. I mean, you are pointing out that Lubrizol is doing the DT40 additive package, so do I need to point out that the additive package for M1 0w-40 is co-developed with Infineum? Oh, and there isn't that same pesky budget like Joe Gibbs would be dealing with when you half-own the bloody company.

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
As for A40, I really doubt if 3200 euros buys you all that testing. edyvw might know


His claim was a VW approval was that much. I have no idea how much the Porsche A40 approval is but from the sounds of things these aren't as expensive as many believe they are
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