Best oil for HyperMiling

[ericthepig]

One of the methods of hypermilers is to take off as soon as you start the car. The best oil I can think of to handle this application is Schaeffer oil w/ it's moly plating. One of Schaeffers specific designs is to reduce cold start-up wear using the moly plating on the metal. Are any other oils in the same league with Schaeffer for this start-go application?

I know other oils have moly, but Schaeffer seems to have specifically designed their oil around it's moly plating ability.

 

[INDYMAC]

LE has a similar additive called Monolec. Take a look at those oils (8130 and 8350).

 

[Steve S]

To avoid cold start wear the thing to do is not to start your car.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
One of the methods of hypermilers is to take off as soon as you start the car.

I have always done that no matter what oil I have used (even before I cared what I oil I used).
I think you are greatly oversimplifying the moly thing. Plenty of other FM in other oils.

 

[odessit]

You could use Pre-Oiler to build oil pressure before engine starts. Theoretically it will minimize engine wear. Amsoil sells them.

 

[ericthepig]

I may be ignorant on the Frictional Modifiers - are these always plated or are some simply in the oil and doing there deed only when oil is on the metal surface? With Schaeffer, I know its "permanently" plated to the metal - thus it's use for start-up protection.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
I know its "permanently" plated to the metal

Unless I am unaware of some special process, the oil will not build a permanent coating. Moly will tend to burnish into the metal but it is only a FM if the plates are stacked and able to move across one another. A little research will show you this.
Esters (which do not show up on UOA) can also be used as FM. Focusing on one aspect of an oil will lead you to false conclusions.

 

[96hb]

To be quite honest with you, I don't think it matters at all, as long as there is some oil in the engine. Just keep it full of whatever you like, and you won't have any problems, IMO. Heck, I've run my Honda 3 quarts low before and nothing happened. Yeah, I know it's bad, but I used to be pretty lazy when it came to maintenance. The car now has 189k miles on it and still runs great.

 

[ericthepig]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Unless I am unaware of some special process, the oil will not build a permanent coating. Moly will tend to burnish into the metal but it is only a FM if the plates are stacked and able to move across one another. A little research will show you this.
Esters (which do not show up on UOA) can also be used as FM. Focusing on one aspect of an oil will lead you to false conclusions.


From my reading on the Schaeffer site, and some info BITOG gives (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly.html) - the moly does form a "permanent" bond - and if I remember correctly, it lays down multiple layers - but these layers are on one piece of metal - the opposing piece of metal will also have multiple layers. The bonded moly will stay in place theortically until the additive is used up. This means that at cold start - the moly is still there - no oil circulation is required. Schaeffer uses a "micron moly" - but this may be no different that the moly in other oils (?). But I do know that Schaeffer's expertise is in working with Moly and getting (supposedly) great cold start performance as well as field test verified mpg increases.

 

[ericthepig]

96hb - your probably right - but it's a "peace of mind" thing - if I'm going to start telling my wife to "turn the key and GO!" for all her many cold starts every day, then if an oil is known to give better protection in this app, I want that oil.

But therein lies my question - are there other oils that have specific benefits in this application. Perhaps every oil that has a bonding anti-frictional will be just as good (but what are those oils?) - is every oil that contains moly essentially equivalent to Schaeffer - or does Schaeffer have a design advantage here? And if there are other "permanent" bonding AFs, what are they and what oils have them?

 

[Bill in Utah]

Buy oil. Make sure it has the SL/SM rating and correct weight for your car.

Change the oil.

Drive the car.

It's that simple. No oil of the same weight is going to make a difference worth looking at.

I've run conventional, high moly oil, syn, high priced syn and guess what? MPG all within normal limits (ie within a mpg)

The gas pump and where it shuts off will make more of a difference than any type of oil.

HOW you DRIVE will make more MPG changes than ANY oil.

bill

 

[ericthepig]

Bill in Utah,

MPG was not my motivation. Having the best oil for this hyper miling technique is what I'm looking for. The only oil producer that I know of that openly boast about their performance in this area is Schaeffer - but perhaps every SM oil out there is essentially equivalent to Schaeffer in it's cold start AW performance. (??) That's the answer I'm looking for.

This engine is already stressed by the MANY daily short trips it makes (almost all under 3 mile roundtrip). Now I'm thinking of taking it one notch higher and asking it to do every short trip using start&roll.

 

[ericthepig]

Oops, now I see the reason for your post Bill - yes MPG is my motivation (for applying hypermiling techniques) - but these HM techniques then bring up this coldstart issue.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
The bonded moly will stay in place theortically until the additive is used up.

How can something be permanent if it is able to move? The bond that holds moly to metal is weak and that is why it is able to work the way it does.

Quote:
This means that at cold start - the moly is still there - no oil circulation is required

Same is true of esters and AW films.

 

[ericthepig]

That's why I keep putting "permanent" in quotes. At least with Schaeffer's "micron moly" the coating is still there the next morning when you start the car. No oil circulation required to reap the AW/AF benefits.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
At least with Schaeffer's "micron moly" the coating is still there the next morning when you start the car. No oil circulation required to reap the AW/AF benefits.

If you say so. I'd rather depend on real AW films for that.

 

[ericthepig]

What's a real AW film and at what pt in start-up do you reap it's benefits. Is it only applied after oil circulation?

 

[ericthepig]

Here's some info from Schaeffer's site (this first article is discussing gear oil which also uses the micron moly - one down a ways is micron moly discussed in context of engine oil)

First article -

The problem

Most gearing is designed to perform under hydrodynamic lubrication conditions. That is, a full fluid film must separate the metal surfaces of the gears during operation. However, during periods of cold start-up or severe shock loads this film can be destroyed. Unless a boundary lubricant is present in the gear oil when this full fluid film is destroyed, wear can take place.

The Schaeffer solution

To prevent this wear Micron Moly®, a liquid soluble type of moly, is further blended into the product. The Micron Moly® provides the boundary lubrication needed by plating to the metal surfaces. This plating action forms a long lasting solid lubricant film on the metal surfaces of the gears. This moly film will withstand pressures up to 500,000 pounds per square inch, thus reducing wear and extending equipment life.

The Micron Moly® also provides a smooth finished surface on all moving parts of the gears. This minimizes the action of cold welding, which can occur during start-up after the gears have been standing idle. This in turn lessen starting loads and peak power demand; thus a realistic power cost savings can be achieved.

-------------- Second article -------------

Eliminates Start-Up Wear
At start-up, your oil is in the pan and not in the engine. Therefore, when you start your engine, metal grinds against metal. It is in those first 60 seconds that engineers estimate that 80% of you engine wear taking place. Supreme 7000 does what no other oil can. It protects your engine even when the oil
is not there. It incorporates two friction fighters, Micron Moly® and Penetro®, that plate themselves to the internal parts of your engine and protect it against start up wear.

Metal to metal causes the most engine wear. Moly actually bonds to metal surfaces. Moly combines with Penetro to provide maximum start-up protection.

------------ end --------------

Schaeffer states that their micron moly - "does what no other oil can" - thus my question - does their technology with moly differ from other companies technology with moly?

 

[Tempest]

Can you say marketing?

Quote:
What's a real AW film and at what pt in start-up do you reap it's benefits.

ZDDP, Boron, Calcium...

 

[ericthepig]

Yes, I can say it - and if that's all it is, that's what I want to know. Meanwhile, are ZDDP, Boron, and Calcium there when the oil is not - ie, do they plate (and remain). And Schaeffer's info may be pure marketing hype, or it may be true. Their rep on BITOG and UOAs are excellent in my understanding.