Best Group II 5W30 ?

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: SR5
A question for any oil formulators around. Just say you had three oils:
- an ILSAC GF-5, Group 2, mineral 5W30 oil
- an ILSAC GF-5, Group 2, mineral 10W30 oil
- an ILSAC GF-5 and ACEA A1/B1 (or A5/B5), Group 3, full synthetic 5W30 oil

What would be the VII percentage for all three ?



VII polymer loadings for the heavier vis grades tend to be pretty uniform and predictable. However for the lighter grades, it's far more complex because more variables come into play.

On a purely 'stab in the dark' basis I'd say...

i) 10% liquid VII with a 50 SSI and a solids content of 8%. The VII loading will increase the more you exceed the 2.9 min HTHS and the more you go below 6600 cP max CCS -30 for reasons of fuel economy. It will also vary depending on the quality of Group II/II+ you use.

ii) 6% liquid VII. Same caveats as above (except reference to CCS-25 7000 cP max).

iii) 9% liquid VII with a 22 SSI and a solids content of 11% however it's quite possible that this oil could be made with 35 SSI VII. The VII loading will vary greatly depending on what Group III is used. It may be more for something ordinary like Yubase and less for something a bit more exotic like GTL. The all important solid VII loading will also vary depending on whether your VII polymer is based on OCP, Shellvis tech or PMA.

You didn't ask the question but if you were to apply an ACEA 3.5 min HTHS to any of the above, then the VII loading would go up to meet the higher HTHS but at the same time go down because there's no need to drop the CCS to meet fuel economy targets.

One day, when I win the lottery and set up my own lab in a shed at the bottom of the garden, I'll be able to give you more definitive answers to this kind of question!

 

[SonofJoe]

ChrisD46,

If I understand things, you've got a new GDI, you don't mind paying over the odds for a decent engine oil and you would prioritise avoiding deposits over something like fuel economy benefits. Is that about right?

There are two questions here; what should you buy and what do you ideally need?

The first question is simple. Use what Hyundai approves.

Regarding what you might actually need, if it was my car, I'd go for the lowest Noack SAE 20/30 monograde oil I could formulate so it would be entirely VII-free. I'd target dead on 2.9 HTHS; no more, no less. Ideally it might be a 10W in terms of low temperature performance. It would be primarily based on heavy PAO. Usually you might add some ester for seal swell but I might forego this in favour of say 20% Group III in the formulation (I don't like esters - far too unpredictable!). I'd be looking for 1000 ppm of Phosphorus (about 1.2% ZDDP) and about 10 TBN's worth of overbased Magnesium Sulphonate. Antioxidant-wise I'd go heavy on Phenyl Di-Amine (PDA) and Moly and avoid Phenolics like the plague. I'd be looking to minimise ashless dispersant (although some would be needed) in order to minimise Noack. I might, if I were in the mood, slap in a couple of precent of heavy, high sulphur Group I mineral oil as it's a wonderful concentrated source of thiophene sulphur and heavy aromatics.

I'm totally guessing here but such an oil might be 10W20, have a Noack of about 4% and no VII. IMO, that's what all GDI engines need, but what do I know!

 

[SonofJoe]

I meant to write Di-Phenyl Amines (DPA's) - sorry, I'd just woken up...

 

[Shannow]

SOLD...do you need an Australian Agent ???

 

[SR5]

Thanks Joe, I like a man that knows his oil, and has made oil. I merely buy the stuff.

Thanks for the VII levels above, I expected a bigger difference, but I didn't really know, so that's why I asked.

So SSI is Shear Stability Index, and the Lower the better, more resistant to shear. So the mineral 5W30 and the synthetic 5W30 have roughly the same amount. But the mineral uses 50 SSI and the synthetic uses 22 SSI.

I know this is all a rough guess and there are many ways to formulate a finished product. However if your formula above is used, and the OP is worried about deposits from VII's, is there any correlation between SSI and thermal stability or deposit formation ?

In other words, talking engine deposits, is there much difference between a 50 SSI and a 22 SSI, assuming the same basic chemistry. ?

Also 10% of 8% solids, delivers less solids than 9% of 11% solids. So is the solids the real VII loading, and the cause of the deposits ? (I suspect it is).

 

[ChrisD46]

Thanks userfriendly , BrocLuno , SRS and SonofJoe - yes to all !! Select some off the shelf oil choices (A5 / B5 ?) with Castrol , Mobil , Pennzoil , Quaker State or Valvoline being as those are the brands I can readily find . I live in North GA. and Hyundai recommends 5W20 , 5W30 or 10W30. *I want to target 200K miles out of this '17 Hyundai GDI 2.4L non turbo engine running 70% suburbs (45 minute commute to work one way) , 20% interstate and 10% short trips . *The $500 bet with the mechanic is based on the approx. cost of a intake valve crushed walnut shell blast .

 

[SR5]

You're lucky Hyundai allow a 10W30, many modern cars don't spec this even though most could use it. Is it OK for your climate? 10W is good down to 0F or -18C, and probably a bit lower.

I would run a full synthetic 10W30, as this has a lower VII load and lower Noack volatility than any 5W30.

Any good name brand would do me, Castrol Edge, M1, etc.

However Pennzoil Platinum on GTL base stock is showing very low Noack whenever tested on PQIA, and it's high natural VI compared to other group 3 oils would require less VII add pack.

Pennzoil Platinum 10W30 gets my vote as first choice.
Second choice is Castrol Edge 10W30, since Castrol tends to be at the thick end of the range compared to most.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Thanks Joe, I like a man that knows his oil, and has made oil. I merely buy the stuff.

Thanks for the VII levels above, I expected a bigger difference, but I didn't really know, so that's why I asked.

So SSI is Shear Stability Index, and the Lower the better, more resistant to shear. So the mineral 5W30 and the synthetic 5W30 have roughly the same amount. But the mineral uses 50 SSI and the synthetic uses 22 SSI.

I know this is all a rough guess and there are many ways to formulate a finished product. However if your formula above is used, and the OP is worried about deposits from VII's, is there any correlation between SSI and thermal stability or deposit formation ?

In other words, talking engine deposits, is there much difference between a 50 SSI and a 22 SSI, assuming the same basic chemistry. ?

Also 10% of 8% solids, delivers less solids than 9% of 11% solids. So is the solids the real VII loading, and the cause of the deposits ? (I suspect it is).


In answer to your question regarding VII's, the higher the molecular weight of the polymer, the more efficient it is as a basic VII. This means for a given KV100/CCS viscometric balance, the higher the MW of the VII, the less solid polymer you need (which is good for economics). Of course, the bigger the VII, the easier it is to shear. Rather than have oil shear down in the field, the Europeans use a somewhat lower MW VII. It's less efficient and you need more polymer to achieve the same viscometric balance, but it shears less. I've never done the experiment to confirm it, but I suspect that deposits correlate with the absolute amount of solid VII in the oil, so the lower SSI VII will be worse in this regard.

As far as I could ever tell, OCP VII's of any SSI were pretty thermally stable. The Hydrogenated Diene Styrene (Shellvis) VII's don't cope as well with high temperatures.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
SOLD...do you need an Australian Agent ???


Me personally? Sadly no.

But there are probably several Chinese entrepreneurs who are reading this thread and thinking this might be a nice way to get filthy rich. So be ready to offer you services to Mr Loh Noh Ac when he comes a calling!

 

[Powerstroke]

Originally Posted By: BobFout
Originally Posted By: Powerstroke
Isn't the Delo 400 LE 5W30 Group II+? It's CJ-4/SN dual rated. But in their literature, it says it's "blended" with 100% synthetic base oils. Has a 11% NOACK but a -51 cold pour point, 3.53 HTHS. My guess is they start with a group II+ then blend it with group III or maybe PAO to get such a low pour point.

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=384346&docFormat=PDF


That oil would be a Group III or better, it's synthetic. Their 10w30 and 15w30 are either Group II+ and/or synblends.

Ok thanks. I was under the impression that Chevron's "ISOSYN" was a hydrocracked Group II+ with Chevron's proprietary additives that makes it "rival" synthetics. That's why I thought OP's question about best Group II 5W30, could be Delo 400 LE 5W30. I guess I'm just confused about ISOSYN philosophy

 

[slybunda]

in the uk its very hard to find conventional oils. everything is either semi or fully synthetic.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: slybunda
in the uk its very hard to find conventional oils. everything is either semi or fully synthetic.

Go to Tesco. Their own brand 15W40 & 20W50 oils will be full minerals. FYI, you can't make a full mineral 10W40 without falling foul of ACEA's rules which is why they are usually semi-synthetic.

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
ChrisD46,

If I understand things, you've got a new GDI, you don't mind paying over the odds for a decent engine oil and you would prioritize avoiding deposits over something like fuel economy benefits. Is that about right?


Regarding what you might actually need, if it was my car, I'd go for the lowest Noack SAE 20/30 monograde oil I could formulate so it would be entirely VII-free. I'd target dead on 2.9 HTHS; no more, no less. Ideally it might be a 10W in terms of low temperature performance. It would be primarily based on heavy PAO ... I'm totally guessing here but such an oil might be 10W20, have a Noack of about 4% and no VII. IMO, that's what all GDI engines need, but what do I know!


You know stuff

And I agree, this is one place where a VII-free mono-grade might be real handy

The formula you proposed sounds a lot like Redline race oils which are dual rated mono and multi. Mono for the racers who do not care about cold start performance. Multi for the fast street crowd who do pay attention to cold start. It might be where such an oil could be gotten ...

 

[slybunda]

ohh thats good, oil with full vitamins and minerals is better for engine?

 

[userfriendly]

Time to whip out the Bolivian calculator.

Delo 400 SAE 20

40C 61
100C 8.5
HTHS 2.7 approx.
Flash 236C
TBN 6.3
SA .96
P .69
Z .76

Delo 100 SAE 40

40C 145
100C 15
HTHS 4.4 approx.
Flash 258C
SA .8
TBN 7.3
P .096
Z .105

20% SAE 40/ 80% SAE 20

40C 71.8
100C 9.5
HTHS 3.0

 

[wemay]

Fascinating thread! Very good questions and thoughtful answers. 5 pages without going down the drain hole like so many others.

 

[SonofJoe]

I was thinking a bit more about this low Noack 10W20 for GDI engines...

I found something on t'internet about Exxon's SpectraSyn 8 (or 8 cst PAO in simple speak) which I thought might be pertinent. To see the properties of this stuff, click on the link below, go to the last row in the table and the click on the blue 'D' to download the PDF.

http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-E...roductsservices

So this PAO 8 had a KV100 of 8 cst and a CCS-30 of 4800 cP so the base oil itself is in 10W20 territory. The Noack of the base oil is just 4.1% which is sort of where I'd expect it to be.

Interestingly, Exxon test the base oil on what looks like a modified pseudo-Noack which cooks the oil at a lower temperature (150C) for longer (22 hours). This is something I'd dearly like to see in the official specs as it's far more meaningful than 'normal' Noack as it's far closer to maximum sump temperature. They see just 0.8% oil loss with PAO 8 which is very encouraging.

There's no HTHS result quoted but plugging the KV100 & KV40 numbers in Widman, you get a predicted KV150 of 3.44 cst. You would need to correct this for density but it looks like there's plenty of headroom to make 2.9 min HTHS on a 10W20.

Obviously it's the properties of the fully formulated oil (ie after the addition of additives) that matters and further work would be needed to define what that oil would look like. Once I win the lottery and build my own lubes lab in my garden shed, I'll have a definitive answer for everyone!!!

 

[SR5]

And when you finished doing that, could you please make me a full synthetic monograde SAE 30 with all the good gear in it and none of the bad stuff.

A 15W30 or 20W30 with a HTHS of about 3.3 or 3.4 would be just the ticket. Maybe about 0.1% Zinc and a TBN of about 9 with a Noack of about 5 or 6 %

Would that be possible ?

I would be most appreciative and I will buy you a beer for your troubles.

 

[SonofJoe]

First off, I need to correct myself. With a CCS-30 of 4800, PAO 8 would, in itself, be on-grade for 5W-20, not 10W-20 as I first stated. However, but the time you've plopped a DI pack into the oil, the CCS-30 would almost certainly go above 6600, so then you would be in 10W territory. I think I was getting a bit ahead of myself.


SR5,

If you're looking for something a bit heavier still, then maybe something based on PAO 10?

Okay, same table top row, SuperSyn 10, again press the blue 'D' to download the data sheet.

This time you're looking at a base oil with a KV100 of 10.0 cst and a CCS-30 of 8840 cP. The latter us off-grade for 5W- but if you go by the rough rule of thumb that CCS doubles every 5C drop, you're looking at a CCS-25 of about 4420 so well on-grade for 10W. Noack is 3.2% and the predicted KV150 is 4.12.

Go with the same very rapidly thrown together DI as before and you'll have a 10W30 (possibly 15W30) oil that's a good 'un!

 

[Shannow]

Joe,
that's a question I asked ages ago...is there a package available (I know prolly only in 44's) that you can add to a simple basestock (like a hydraulic oil), and get an engine oil out of ?