Best Group II 5W30 ?

[SonofJoe]

Havoline Pro DS advertises itself as a full synthetic so I'd regard it as outside the scope of a thread that's notionally about 'What's the best Group II 5W30?'.

Having said that, it's also advertised as having a Noack of 13% (this is right on the knocker of the Dexos spec). Full synthetic? Really?? Sure it's not a Group II/III mix?? I'm not saying it not full synthetic but I might have excepted it to be a tad lower.

Oh, and if I look at the Pro DS PDS, the 5W20 and the 0W20 are essentially the same oil, because if the stupidly low CCS of the 5W20.

 

[userfriendly]

I can't understand the fascination of 5w30.
How many days of the year do you need cold pumping and cranking performance below 10Wxx or 15Wxx?
Not many if any, for most of the world most of the time.
So why use it? And why is 0W20 the go to xW20 instead of 5W20 or 10W20? Did it suddenly get 5*C colder in the last 10 years?
I would guess that a mono-grade SAE 20 is actually a 10W20 or 15W20.
If I was shopping for a SAE 20 PCMO for 3 season performance, I would get Delo 400 SAE20.
Group II, low saps & NOACK.
Moving up to xW30, low SAPS SAE30s are available. Call them 20W30, good to just below freezing.
For winter, if you want some reserve cold performance, try 10W30 synthetic. I would use that before 5W30 conventional.
Petro-Canada's synthetic PCMO shows 7% NOACK. I doesn't get much better than that.
The best 5W30 group II is 10W30.

 

[bbhero]

Well A) the topic was changed a bit over time... and that's not a bad thing... that happens all the time on here. B) If you don't care for Chevron/Havoline that's no problem or concern of mine C) Almost all full synthetics here are a mix of group 2 and 3 and 4 etc etc... that's not to be unexpected. That's not a state secret. Closest oil to real full synthetic is probably Castrol 0w30, 0w40 Mobil 1 0w40 plus others. Bottom line is that most technically may not be totally that at all. Especially given court decision here in the US. D) Havoline Pro DS has a CCS of 3600 or so.... pretty low In fact near Amsoil in terms of that. Not bad at all. Ohh and Quaker State Ultimate Durability is down there as well. E) NOACK is not the end all and be all either.. In my car it doesn't burn off 13% of it when used. Try about a negligible amount. F) Chevron makes oils that are solid and perform very well. You could throw a blanket on all the major oil producers in the US. They ALL make good to very good oils to use.

Having said that... best 5w30s are anything from Pennzoil, Valvoline, Chevron/Havoline, Mobil 1, Castrol, WPP, Warren oil, Supertech, Citgo Supercard, Formula Shell... throw a dart... they all are quite good really

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly

The best 5W30 group II is 10W30.


Originally Posted By: SR5

If you want an all Group 2 oil in 30 grade, then the best should be a 10W-30 that has a lot less polymer VII load than a 5W-30 would have.


I'm with you brother.
Mineral = 10W30
Synthetic = 5W30

 

[userfriendly]

Crykie! I didn't see your post, too busy looking at Sonofjoe repeating himself to no avail.

Move up to 10W30 synthetic, the flash point goes up and the NOACK goes down.
I'm thinking 10W30 synthetic with 3.8 HTHS. What if that is as good as it gets @ $5/L?

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Crykie! I didn't see your post, too busy looking at Sonofjoe repeating himself to no avail.

Move up to 10W30 synthetic, the flash point goes up and the NOACK goes down.
I'm thinking 10W30 synthetic with 3.8 HTHS. What if that is as good as it gets @ $5/L?


Not many full synthetic 10W30s around me except castrol Edge 10W30 and it's A5/B5 with a HTHS about 3.2 and a Noack about 8%

The castrol Magnatec 10W30 I'm using now is a semi-synthetic A3/B4 with a HTHS of about 3.5 to 3.6, not sure about the Noack.

I haven't spotted a HDEO 10W30 in my local auto stores. Most of the other 10w30s around me are mineral or semi-synthetic ILSAC GF-5 oils.

So slim pickings for me, one full synthetic 10W30 (Edge A5/B5) and one high HTHS 10W30 in the form of semi-syn Magnatec A3/B4. That's it, only two worth considering.

A few good full synthetic 5W30s here, both in A3/B4 and A5/B5 format.

Absolutely no mineral 5W30s here.

 

[SR5]

A question for any oil formulators around. Just say you had three oils:
- an ILSAC GF-5, Group 2, mineral 5W30 oil
- an ILSAC GF-5, Group 2, mineral 10W30 oil
- an ILSAC GF-5 and ACEA A1/B1 (or A5/B5), Group 3, full synthetic 5W30 oil

What would be the VII percentage for all three ?

 

[4WD]

On a percent basis - 10w30 synthetic is a slimmer choice here as well despite moderate temperatures. I'm running some M1 10w30 HM and getting 3.5 that way - but seepage seems to be the same. (No drips).
Now have purchased Delvac 15w40 (Dino) for next fill ...

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
I can't understand the fascination of 5w30.
How many days of the year do you need cold pumping and cranking performance below 10Wxx or 15Wxx?
Not many if any, for most of the world most of the time.
So why use it? And why is 0W20 the go to xW20 instead of 5W20 or 10W20? Did it suddenly get 5*C colder in the last 10 years?
I would guess that a mono-grade SAE 20 is actually a 10W20 or 15W20.
If I was shopping for a SAE 20 PCMO for 3 season performance, I would get Delo 400 SAE20.
Group II, low saps & NOACK.
Moving up to xW30, low SAPS SAE30s are available. Call them 20W30, good to just below freezing.
For winter, if you want some reserve cold performance, try 10W30 synthetic. I would use that before 5W30 conventional.
Petro-Canada's synthetic PCMO shows 7% NOACK. I doesn't get much better than that.
The best 5W30 group II is 10W30.



Back from doing holiday stuff now..


I couldn't agree more about the low temperature thing. The UK, meteorologically speaking, is a 15W- country. 10W- is a luxury while 5W- & 0W- makes no sense whatsoever unless you regularly commute from Basingstoke to Murmansk.

The 'fascination' with 5W30 etc comes from the OEMs drive to reduce emissions and improve fuel economy; the improvement in cold start is simply an associated by-product of this. The maths are pretty simple. Just imagine a 10W30, a 5W30 and a 0W30. They all have the same viscosity at 100C but the viscosity at 15C (a typical UK ambient temperature) of the 5W30 will be way lower than that of the 10W30 while the viscosity at 15C of the 0W30 will be lower still. The engine's fuel economy while the oil is heating up will therefore be best on the 0W30 and worst for 10W30. This is important if you do a lot of short trips.

If you're prepared to forego the fuel economy credits, then a 10W30 makes a lot of sense. Be careful of using SAE 20. You might just find your HTHS drops off a cliff because of the slope of the KV vs Temp chart. Dead bearings aren't worth the hassle.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Well A) the topic was changed a bit over time... and that's not a bad thing... that happens all the time on here. B) If you don't care for Chevron/Havoline that's no problem or concern of mine C) Almost all full synthetics here are a mix of group 2 and 3 and 4 etc etc... that's not to be unexpected. That's not a state secret. Closest oil to real full synthetic is probably Castrol 0w30, 0w40 Mobil 1 0w40 plus others. Bottom line is that most technically may not be totally that at all. Especially given court decision here in the US. D) Havoline Pro DS has a CCS of 3600 or so.... pretty low In fact near Amsoil in terms of that. Not bad at all. Ohh and Quaker State Ultimate Durability is down there as well. E) NOACK is not the end all and be all either.. In my car it doesn't burn off 13% of it when used. Try about a negligible amount. F) Chevron makes oils that are solid and perform very well. You could throw a blanket on all the major oil producers in the US. They ALL make good to very good oils to use.

Having said that... best 5w30s are anything from Pennzoil, Valvoline, Chevron/Havoline, Mobil 1, Castrol, WPP, Warren oil, Supertech, Citgo Supercard, Formula Shell... throw a dart... they all are quite good really


As I recall the Castrol v Mobil court decision was that Group III's could be classed as 'synthetics' based on the fact that they had similar properties to PAO's; the original 'synthetic'. As far as I know, this was never extended to Group II's so if, in the US, you buy something that is 'full synthetic', then I would expect the oil to be all Group III as a minimum. That mineral Group II 5W30's might contain some Group III for Noack-trim and not be labelled semi-synthetic isn't a surprise but to find Group II/II+ in a 'full synthetic' would be.

A good rule of thumb for Group I minerals is that the CCS doubles for every 5C drop in test temperature. In Group I terms, a CCS of 3600 cP at -30C would equate to a 7200 cP CCS at -35C. However, both the 0W20 and 5W20 version of Pro DS are notionally 'full synthetic' and should therefore have a flatter viscosity gradient compared to Group I. For the sake of argument, say the factor for Group III is 1.8 rather than 2, so a CCS of 3600 cP at -30C might equate to a CCS of 6480 cP at -35C, which is almost ongrade for 0W20. Hence my comment that the 0W20 and 5W20 are more or less the same oil.

Finally, yes, agreed. Noack ISN'T the be all and end all when it comes to choosing an oil. However, it not should it be blithely ignored either. In the European Oils section we've just been discussing Lobe's BMW which has been afflicted with late onset oil ring stick; a problem that's annoying, is going to be a bugger to get rid of (short of a full engine strip down) and has probably already knackered his cat. Just because high Noack doesn't affect all engines in all circumstances, it doesn't mean there aren't engines out there that over time, it's doing real damage to.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
As I recall the Castrol v Mobil court decision was that Group III's could be classed as 'synthetics' based on the fact that they had similar properties to PAO's; the original 'synthetic'. As far as I know, this was never extended to Group II's so if, in the US, you buy something that is 'full synthetic', then I would expect the oil to be all Group III as a minimum. That mineral Group II 5W30's might contain some Group III for Noack-trim and not be labelled semi-synthetic isn't a surprise but to find Group II/II+ in a 'full synthetic' would be.


There was no lawsuit and no court decision, only a complaint to the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau. Their decision carries no legal enforcement whatsoever. An entity by their own accord can agree to abide by the NAD guidelines in advertising.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
As far as I know, this was never extended to Group II's so if, in the US, you buy something that is 'full synthetic', then I would expect the oil to be all Group III as a minimum. That mineral Group II 5W30's might contain some Group III for Noack-trim and not be labelled semi-synthetic isn't a surprise but to find Group II/II+ in a 'full synthetic' would be.


I would agree with this except if the blender is purchasing a liquid VII - then the diluent oil may be Group II or even Group I in some cases.

 

[bbhero]

Well Joe... you provide a whole lot of great information in here. Which is appreciated.

The case with Castrol and Mobil did muddy our definitions a fair amount. But I agree that when one purchases a full synthetic here it should be group 3 at minimum. I had read in here many times that a conventional oil is used to carry some additives. Maybe this is and was wrong. Could well be wrong. And I do agree with your assessment of measured volatility does matter in some vehicles more than others. Shoot, the fact volatility dropping from 22% to 15% does indicate that it had to meant something. I do like looking for the Dexos approval for this reason. You know what?? I have 10 qts of Castrol 0w30 that is less than 10% and it has lots of tougher specs than a regular API SN. I do think it matters but I wonder to what degree for some cars and trucks. It is what you stated earlier on and that it really is a trade off at times.

 

[4WD]

I'm sticking with half in my signature ... that 5.3 could run smoothly on cooking oil .. the ecoboost has me noack paranoid
(Has PUP in the belly)

 

[ChrisD46]

OP here : Good dialogue ! However it may help posters to understand I have no bias towards a dino or synthetic 5W20 / 5W30 or even 10W30 oils . In the Japanese tests on the Hyndai GDI engine it is "leaning towards" viscosity Improvers as being more of an issue with intake valve deposits than the NOACK of the oil (although lower NOACK has it's benefits). As a new Hyundai Sonata GDI owner (and also an engineer by trade) I have come to believe : 1) A Dexos 1 approved oil can be good for a GDI engine - but that could mean anything from a Pennzoil Ultra 5W20 / 5W30 all the way down to a semi-synthetic 5W20 / 5W30 Dexos 1 approved oil . One bit of advice here is to "buy the best synthetic your wallet can afford" . 2 ) My next question deals with the debate between 5W20 & 5W30 Dexos 1 approved oils : If the Japanese GDI experiment is true - then viscosity improvers may play a greater role in intake valve deposits than expected ? So in this case while 5W20 should have less viscosity improvers than a 5W30 , there is the potential fuel dilution in GDI engines to be mindful of . The case for 5W30 (also Hyundai approved viscosity) is the additional specs. a 5W30 synthetic oil can meet (in addition to Dexos 1) such as : ACEA A1/B1 , A5/B5 and HTO-6 which I would deem to be good things in a oil to reduce DI intake valve deposits . *So the challenge for me is to answer questions #1 & #2 (along with using a top tier fuel and a spirited driving style) in order to win a $500 bet with my mechanic : "By 75K miles (because of a GDI engine) I will be a prime candidate for having my intake valves under go a crushed walnut blasting" - Yes or No ? ... By educating myself further here on BITOG my goal is to win that bet (also believing that a 2017 Hyundai GDI engine has evolved as far as intake valve deposits go) .

 

[BrocLuno]

Yes and no. GDI is still early days for all concerned compared to carbureted, throttle body injected and port injected. So everybody is learning from the evolution of oils and fuels.

The best way to eliminate intake valve deposits would be to not introduce crankcase emissions into the intake in the first place. OK, we can't go back to road draft, but what can be done to re-route or treat these emission before they get to the valves? If it were only clean dry air reaching the valves it would not matter for 200,000 miles.

So what oils will reduce the emissions to zero? That's the debate you are really striving for...

Ester based lubes? PAO based lubes? Severely hydro-cracked and highly refined?

Are you going to spend $$ to run Redline in a daily driver? Or, European import oils like Motul 300V ester?

 

[Powerstroke]

Isn't the Delo 400 LE 5W30 Group II+? It's CJ-4/SN dual rated. But in their literature, it says it's "blended" with 100% synthetic base oils. Has a 11% NOACK but a -51 cold pour point, 3.53 HTHS. My guess is they start with a group II+ then blend it with group III or maybe PAO to get such a low pour point.

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=384346&docFormat=PDF

 

[userfriendly]

ChrisD46;

You are paying for the label instead of the product with all those manufacture approvals. People think that there must be some sort of magical additive
oil companies are holding out on, with their plain label offerings.

The Petro-Canada example I mentioned up thread, shows their 5W30 synthetic meeting Dexos, but not the superior in every was but cold start/pumping 10W30.
The only difference between the two grades is the base oil viscosity and the extra garbage thrown in to increase the VI.

Personally if I don't need 5Wxor 0Wxx, I don't want the extra cost & compromises just to have it.
I'll take instead, the lower Noack and higher flash point of the 10W30, conventional or synthetic.

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: Powerstroke
Isn't the Delo 400 LE 5W30 Group II+? It's CJ-4/SN dual rated. But in their literature, it says it's "blended" with 100% synthetic base oils. Has a 11% NOACK but a -51 cold pour point, 3.53 HTHS. My guess is they start with a group II+ then blend it with group III or maybe PAO to get such a low pour point.

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=384346&docFormat=PDF


That oil would be a Group III or better, it's synthetic. Their 10w30 and 15w30 are either Group II+ and/or synblends.

 

[SR5]

OP,

Thanks for the update, I too want you to win your bet. It seems Hyundai is also concerned with VII load. This bring me back to my previous question of % of VII in 5W30 mineral Vs 5W30 Syn Vs 10W30 Vs 5W20 Syn.

My general feeling is that the lower the Noack volatility the better. By this measure everything I see says a full synthetic 10W30 is better, Typical values from memory would be 6 to 8 % for a 10W30 and 9 to 12 % for a 5W30.

For standards, the Ford WSS and GM dexos standards appear to be based on the Euro ACEA standards. To me A5/B5 is close to the top and what I would look for.

It's a shame that 10W30 is not a Dexos grade, then their would be a lot more of them.