Best Group II 5W30 ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
got any 0w-30 figures? I suspect making a 0w-30 takes a different approach, especially if you need HTHS to be above 3.5 cP.


You asking me or Chris ?

Sinclair don't make a Euro A3 0W-30 for comparison.

Valvoline list their SynPower MST 5W30 (C3) and their SynPower 0W40 (A3/B4) as both having a Noack of 9%, this sounds about right to me, and I would expect a 0W30 to be similar.

They list their ILSAC grade SynPower 5W20, 5W30, 10W30 as all the same at 10%, but I suspect they are different, and I think they mean they all meet the 10% standard.

Their SynPower 20W50 is 8%, and their 0W20 is 12%.
 
I'm asking in general, not anyone specific...

If the same approach to make a 5w30 was used to make a 0w-30, the base oil would have to be much thinner, and the VII treat much higher, resulting in out of control Noack percentages. But if they aren't, the base stock blend must have an inherently higher VI.
 
Yes I agree and I would assume a 0W is better made.

Speaking to a Castrol tech over the phone a few years a go, he said their Edge 0W40 is based on Group 4 (PAO) while their Edge 5W40 is based on Group 3 (HydroCracked).
 
Note, this is a blend guide, not a Mobil(e) 1 recipe book...
http://www.palmerholland.com/News/file.a...%20Brochure.pdf

Mobil20Viscosity20Mix.jpg


mPAO.jpg
 
Especially the 0w-30 vs 0w-40 is of interest there. While the base oil is thinner for the 0w40, the VM treat goes up, as does the Noack as a result...

So adding a small percentage of high viscosity PAO (somewhere around 8%) to the 0w-30 formula could get you there?

I think this is something that the E-ion company was working on with their ionised vegetable oils: high viscosity, high VI fluids to increase HTHS and decrease mixed lubrication friction and wear... I suppose that's the corner of the market they wanted to get into (again)
 
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Especially the 0w-30 vs 0w-40 is of interest there. While the base oil is thinner for the 0w40, the VM treat goes up, as does the Noack as a result...


Yes I agree. But look at the 5W30, no SpectraSyn 4, all SpectraSyn 6 & 8, VM (VII) = only 2.8% and so Noack = a low 6%.

Once you have enough cold start for where you live and any likely travel, having anymore doesn't do you any favours in terms of Noack and VII dose rate.

As much cold start as you need, but no more than what you need.
 
Yeah I agree, the average full synthetic 5W30 wouldn't be this good and would probably contain a large amount of Group 3 base. A Noack of about 9 or 10% The Edge 5W30 A3/B4 has a HTHS of 3.6 cP.

What do you think of Penrite 10-Tenths 5W-30 ?
[Penrite Racing 5W30]
It's pure PAO & Ester (no Group 3) with a HTHS of about 3.3 cP from memory, and according to it's MSDS it's mostly PAO and only a small amount of Ester (again from memory).

It seems pretty close to the Mobil specs given by Shannow
 
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
true, but you can't actually find a 6% noack 5w-30 in practice (I want around 3.5cP hths anyway), so that oil is likely prohibitively expensive...


Mobil 1 5W30 ESP has a 3.58 HTHS and NOACK is supposed to be around 6%...I know the Russian Oil Club has it around there and saw another VOA close to that that I might be able to track down if a spent a couple of hours. Exxon/Mobil will never tell us squat about NOACK, of course...
But, yeah, probably prohibitively expensive for most people. I had a recent fit of insanity and shelled out for 12 liters.
 
Originally Posted By: zeng
That's right, M1 ESP 5W30 Noack is However, EP 5W30 is about 9 % though.


And the PQIA had vanilla M1 5W30 right near 10% a few years ago.
I switched from it over to EP for cold weather because it looked like it might offer tiny improvements in cold viscosity and NOACK performance, and what the heck for $3 or whatever more per jug at MalWart. I'm still going to dump it every 5k like I have with every oil I've used. The ESP is waiting in the garage for warm weather.
Edyvw did say that the ESP can be found at NAPA for a decent price on sale.

BTW, does anybody know if 5W30 ESP is supposed to be ester based??
 
Last edited:
A couple of comments on Shannow's ExxonMobil tables...

The 0W20, 0W30 & 0W40 blends are logical and instructive. The wider the cross grade, the more VII you need. Because VII has poor CCS characteristics, the lighter your base oil mix needs to be so Noack rises. This is a basic truth for all multi grade oils, both mineral & synthetic.

The 5W30, 5W40 & 5W50 series is less logical because the 5W50 appears to contain 'too much' PAO8. However this happens when you don't blend to a constant CCS.

One feature of the table is that all the blends contain the same amount of the same DI. Given that a lot of the problems with oil stem from the amount of VII they contain and their Noack, you should consider the 0W20 say, to be 'over formulated' relative to the 0W40. In theory the 0W20 should contain less DI for the same level of performance but given that oil development programs cost an arm and a leg, it's more cost-effective to use the same DI treat across the board and allow the narrowest cross grade to gain a bit of 'extra' performance.

I'm only highlighting this because a PAO based mono grade (eg 5W20, 10W20/30), by virtue of being VII-free, would (a) automatically have a higher Noack and (b) could sustain a lower DI treat which in turn would allow an even further reduction in Noack. Which sort of brings you back to the ultra-low Noack, VII-free PAO based mono grade which I reckon you might want for the long-term health of a GDI engine.

BTW, you can't blame Exxon for not showing such an oil in the table because it's their job to sell as much DI & VII as possible. However it illustrates my oft repeated point that their objectives and your objectives might not always be the same thing...
 
Interesting. A couple years ago I had a master Ford diesel tech, with 30 years experience in various Diesel engines, told me the best oil for longevity was an oil with little to no VII, monograde PAO. He was a big fan of Amsoil ACD 10w30/30. Only thing I don't like about the ACD is the 3.4 HTHS. But it has strong 6.4% NOACK. It also could probably qualify as a 5w30
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Especially the 0w-30 vs 0w-40 is of interest there. While the base oil is thinner for the 0w40, the VM treat goes up, as does the Noack as a result...

So adding a small percentage of high viscosity PAO (somewhere around 8%) to the 0w-30 formula could get you there?

I think this is something that the E-ion company was working on with their ionised vegetable oils: high viscosity, high VI fluids to increase HTHS and decrease mixed lubrication friction and wear... I suppose that's the corner of the market they wanted to get into (again)



I might take issue with the 'add a very heavy PAO for better HTHS' thing. Exxon aren't necessarily telling you the whole story.

There's a trick that all formulators know about. To make a multi grade with a given KV100 & CCS, you generally need two base oils; one thin & volatile and the other thick and less volatile. Now you can make the blend using two base oils that in relative terms, are close together (say PAO 4 and PAO 6). Alternatively you can use two base oils which are far apart (say PAO 4 and SpectraSyn Elite 150). The latter is called a 'dumbbell' blend. The first 'close together' blend will yield the lowest Noack oil with a relatively high VII loading. The dumbbell blend gives the opposite, it contains less VII but has a higher Noack. Now because the oil contains less VII, and VII is the only stuff that shears in an oil, for a given KV100, the dumbbell will have the higher HTHS. Now did you notice how the table DIDN'T show the impact on Noack?? Sneaky eh!
 
Higher noack in a dumbell blend, wouldn't that be because the lighter oil is in effect lighter and more volatile than you would use in the close together blend? or at least more of the light base oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Higher noack in a dumbell blend, wouldn't that be because the lighter oil is in effect lighter and more volatile than you would use in the close together blend? or at least more of the light base oil.



It's the latter. You need more light to balance off the effect of the heavier heavy. Given that it's always the light front-end of the lightest base oil that does most damage when it comes to Noack, it's not surprising that the dumbbell blend is more volatile.

Perplexingly, it's far harder to rationalise why the dumbbell blend requires less VII. Yes the heavy PAO has a very high KV100, but unlike a proper VII, it's also extremely thick at low temperatures so there should be no net VI gain. It probably has something to do with the logarithmical nature of viscosity blending but I honestly don't know why it's like it is, I just know that it always works out this way.
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
BTW, you can't blame Exxon for not showing such an oil in the table because it's their job to sell as much DI & VII as possible. However it illustrates my oft repeated point that their objectives and your objectives might not always be the same thing...


They sort of do, but sort of don't...

mobil%20small%20motors.jpg


detail, but no fine detail like NOACKs, HTHS and the like...
 
Interesting table, again the 10W30 is the only blend without. VM & PPD, but I suspect that a 5W20 (not listed) would be the same.

Just for my own clarity, SpectraSyn 10, is a PAO base oil with a KV100 of 10 cSt, correct?

That 10W40 looks a bit light to me.
 
Shannow,

This new table sort of hints at what I was saying. It is a shame the table is lacking so many critical properties which would make drawing definitive conclusions so much easier.

However, if you compare columns 4 & 5, I read that as saying you can either have a 10W30 containing 5% PAO 100 or one containing 55% of PAO 10. My money would be on the PAO 10 oil having a much lower Noack.

Column 6 makes no sense whatsoever. Have they put the wrong grade in?

SR5,

Yes. You have it right about SpectraSyn 10.
 
Mac Joe;
I was looking at engine oils for CNG & LPG. You can pick TBN & SA levels in both single and multi grades.
Some products are specifically blended for engines converted from gasoline or diesel to gas fuelled.
Could these engine oils be used as a platform for other applications?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

GI_GRIFF
Three 0w-16 choices I am considering next.
3 4 5
Replies
80
Views
3K
OVERKILL
P
Oil recommendation for high mileage Jeep G. Cherokee 4.7L with limited selection of brands and types
Replies
12
Views
844
Carlostrece
T
f-150 2.7 Eco-Boost Sheared 5W-30 down to 5W-20. Which oil to buy?
2 3
Replies
46
Views
2K
tobylester
B
Ford spec vs Euro whats euro is missing ?
Replies
14
Views
956
robburrow5150
T
1980 CHEV PU, correct oil
Replies
5
Views
217
PontiacHO
Back
Top Bottom