Best filter for preventing start up rattle???

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Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Yes sir flow is your friend especially at start up I suggested Quaker State UD in 0w20. Isn't your vehicle spec'd for a 20 anyway? Or did I miss something?

Yes but my Ford tech friend back in FL suggested 0W30 or 5W30 synthetic. He said that the XW30 oil would stay on the upper end parts longer/better as opposed to the XW20,thus less noise at startup.


The ONLY thing that keeps oil in the lube pathways and supply circuits above the filter, after shut down, is the ADBV. How in the world can minor viscosity differences make the oil "stay on the upper end parts longer/better"? Once oil is up to temp, it is very fluid and drains fairly quickly. The difference in drain-back times between the lubes you state would be a few moments at most. If the system has the ability to drain down, it will.

Further, is it the suggestion of your buddy that synthetics resist drain back "better" than conventional oil? Ironic, is it not. Why do I ask? Here's why ...
Most folks claim that syns are "better" at start up, because they flow "better" than dino's (true at uber cold temps, but not as big a benefit for most of us normal folks). OK - if I were to accept that all syns flow "better" at all start up conditions (and I'm not saying that I do), then would not that same characteristic be a detriment at shut down, because the same property that makes a syn so easy to flow at start up would also make it flow easily at shut down? So would it not drain down "quicker"? In other words if a 5w-30 syn flows so much "better" at start up than a dino 5w-30, then would it also not flow "better" (drain back) at shut down? But your buddy is now attriubuting a characteristic that the syn can flow easier at start up, but also flow slower at shut down. MAGIC - simply MAGIC!

Dubious, preposterous, subjective garbage.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Yes sir flow is your friend especially at start up I suggested Quaker State UD in 0w20. Isn't your vehicle spec'd for a 20 anyway? Or did I miss something?

Yes but my Ford tech friend back in FL suggested 0W30 or 5W30 synthetic. He said that the XW30 oil would stay on the upper end parts longer/better as opposed to the XW20,thus less noise at startup.


The ONLY thing that keeps oil in the lube pathways and supply circuits above the filter, after shut down, is the ADBV. How in the world can minor viscosity differences make the oil "stay on the upper end parts longer/better"? Once oil is up to temp, it is very fluid and drains fairly quickly. The differnce in drain-back between the lubes you state would be a few minutes at most. If the system has the ability to drain down, it will. I find that statement your friend made dubious.

Ok dnewton3,I GET YOUR POINT!
smirk.gif
I'm just stating what he told me.Don't kill the messenger!

Let's here your synopsis or theory on this.
 
I realize (or at least presume) that the info you state is not your own; I get that. I'm not attributing the insanity of those statements to you, personally.
 
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Hmmm...that would be counter to my experiences, but every vehicle has it's personality. The general thought is the thinner at start up the less noise, which is the way it's played out with my vehicles.

Now if you have a hot vehicle that's noisy, thick is your friend then but you'll pay the price on start up.

Didn't you have less start up noise with the thin Mobil? If so that would suggest going thinner still might help, not back to thicker. Snythetics in general flow better though, which is why I suggested the bargain priced QSUD.

Am I missing something? I thought the first number (5W or 0W) was the oil weight at startup,then the second numbers (W20 or W30) is the oil weight at operating temperature.
confused2.gif



Yes but they go hand in hand, a 20 grade is still a 20, and a 30 still has to be a 30, so a 5w20 will be thinner than a 5w30 on start up since it's a 20, not a 30 after all. And an 0w20 should be thinner than a 5w20, but they'll both be 20's at operating temp. That's the simplified version, it gets way more complicated than that.
crazy2.gif
 
While on a rant, I'll run one more defect of your buddy's theory into the ground.

If his position is that syns stay on the upper end "better", does that infer that it drains down more slowly? I would presume that's his inference. And let's suppose that he meant it would last for hours, because only minutes is worthless to all of us that shut down an engine when at work, or sleeping at night, etc.

OK - then if the syn can stay on the upper end for hours, how many minutes would it take to run a sump pan dry???????? If there is such a disparity of drain back times between syn and dino, and the syn stays on the upper end "better", and knowing a typical oil pump runs perhaps 4 gallons a minute at a moderat speed, just how long would it take before the pump put all the "better" (slower draining) synthetic oil into the valve covers, and the sump pan ran dry?

Or, would the 5w-20 drain down and the 5w-30 fill the valve cover? Most engines can safely run anything from a 20 grade to a 40 grade. This "drain back" topic is WAY overblown and so grossly misunderstood my most folks. If the oils 20,30,40 grade can drain down when the engine is running, then they will drain down when the engine is off. All at roughly the same rate. If they didn't the sump would run dry when running.

Again - dubious garbage. Clearly your buddy didn't think his lack of rationale through.

Viscosity is very consistent between lubes rated the same, grade for grade. That's the whole point; consistency in product comparisons.

The "best" you will be able to do is get a decent filter with a silicone ADBV and just learn to live with the result.


BTW - a 5w-20 will not be "thinner" than a 5w-30 at start up; they will be very close to the same. A 5w-20 will be thinner at full temp than a 5w-30. But when cold, they will be very close to the same vis.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I realize (or at least presume) that the info you state is not your own; I get that. I'm not attributing the insanity of those statements to you, personally.

It's not that,it's the way in which you replied to me.This is not the first time you have replied to my post in a "sarcastic" tone.As I have stated to you before,you seem to be a very intelligent person with a vast amount of knowledge and I respect that.But,please address me or my post' in a more toned down way,as it don't seem like you are attacking me,personally.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Yes sir flow is your friend especially at start up I suggested Quaker State UD in 0w20. Isn't your vehicle spec'd for a 20 anyway? Or did I miss something?

Yes but my Ford tech friend back in FL suggested 0W30 or 5W30 synthetic. He said that the XW30 oil would stay on the upper end parts longer/better as opposed to the XW20,thus less noise at startup.


So the tech knows better than the engineers at Ford that specified the required oil? Hummmm ...
whistle.gif
 
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
dnewton3,I use MC FL-400s filters.My truck has 93K miles on it.Which oil would you use in it;conventional 5W20,semi-syn 5W20-5W30,synthetic 0W20,0W30,5W20,or 5W30?


I'd use a full synthetic in the viscosity that is recommended for it. With a full synthetic you can go twice the OCI ... so you're really not wasting money there. You are however cutting down on the number of OCIs you need to do.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

BTW - a 5w-20 will not be "thinner" than a 5w-30 at start up; they will be very close to the same. A 5w-20 will be thinner at full temp than a 5w-30. But when cold, they will be very close to the same vis.


I know you're referring to kinematic viscosity but even then your typical 5w20 will have a lower viscosity at 40c than your typical 5w30. And a typical HTHS of 2.6 for a 5w20 versus 3.0 for a 5w30 is indeed "thinner". I didn't say it was "dramatically thinner".
laugh.gif


I know we love to have the 20/30 weight wars on here but I honestly believe 5w20 and 5w30 would be virtually interchangeable in most vehicles and the owner would never know the difference unless you told them.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

BTW - a 5w-20 will not be "thinner" than a 5w-30 at start up; they will be very close to the same. A 5w-20 will be thinner at full temp than a 5w-30. But when cold, they will be very close to the same vis.


Define "not thinner"?

Using two SOPUS products as an example:

@40C:
5w30: 63.9cSt
5w20: 47.3cSt

Which is a much broader range than at temp:

@100C:
5w30: 10.5cSt
5w20: 8.4cSt

So I would argue that this is backwards. The 5w20 is certainly thinner at start-up. When they are at temp they are much closer.

A quick look at CCS and MRV confirms this as well:

CCS @ -30C:
5w30: 5,800cP
5w20: 5,100cP

MRV @ -35C:
5w30: 15,900cP
5w20: 12,400cP


At any temperature under 100C, the difference in viscosity between 5w20 and 5w30 is greater and the distance between them grows as the temperature drops.
 
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

BTW - a 5w-20 will not be "thinner" than a 5w-30 at start up; they will be very close to the same. A 5w-20 will be thinner at full temp than a 5w-30. But when cold, they will be very close to the same vis.


I know you're referring to kinematic viscosity but even then your typical 5w20 will have a lower viscosity at 40c than your typical 5w30. And a typical HTHS of 2.6 for a 5w20 versus 3.0 for a 5w30 is indeed "thinner". I didn't say it was "dramatically thinner".
laugh.gif


I know we love to have the 20/30 weight wars on here but I honestly believe 5w20 and 5w30 would be virtually interchangeable in most vehicles and the owner would never know the difference unless you told them.



I would agree with that statement generally, and even up the ante a bit. I see enough wear data evidence that even some 40 grades really don't detract from the issue.

As a generalization, anything from a 20 grade to 40 grade will often suffice to retard wear. It is VERY difficult, if not impossible, to see clear delineation of wear differential in UOA evidence when trying to split hairs on grades and wear.

However, that also plays against the "must be thicker" or "should use thinner" crowds. It's not likely to reduce wear using a 40 grade, any more than one would unsuccessfually argue that using a 20 grade induces wear over the alternatives.

I do agree that some products are going to be "thinner" at some arbitrary "xW" rating, but the proof is not in the VOAs; it's in the UOAs. What differences exist in the bottle do not manifest into differences in the crankcase in regard to wear.

As a mass generalization, the brand/grade topics are moot, at least to me. Same goes for "normal" full flow filters.

The thing I try to pound is in using any product chosen out ot a reasonably sane limit; get your ROI.
 
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
dnewton3,I use MC FL-400s filters.My truck has 93K miles on it.Which oil would you use in it;conventional 5W20,semi-syn 5W20-5W30,synthetic 0W20,0W30,5W20,or 5W30?


I'd use a full synthetic in the viscosity that is recommended for it. With a full synthetic you can go twice the OCI ... so you're really not wasting money there. You are however cutting down on the number of OCIs you need to do.


I would agree here, prefacing my comment that your base stock selection needs to match your maintenance plan.

Read my signature line.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

BTW - a 5w-20 will not be "thinner" than a 5w-30 at start up; they will be very close to the same. A 5w-20 will be thinner at full temp than a 5w-30. But when cold, they will be very close to the same vis.


I know you're referring to kinematic viscosity but even then your typical 5w20 will have a lower viscosity at 40c than your typical 5w30. And a typical HTHS of 2.6 for a 5w20 versus 3.0 for a 5w30 is indeed "thinner". I didn't say it was "dramatically thinner".
laugh.gif


I know we love to have the 20/30 weight wars on here but I honestly believe 5w20 and 5w30 would be virtually interchangeable in most vehicles and the owner would never know the difference unless you told them.



I would agree with that statement generally, and even up the ante a bit. I see enough wear data evidence that even some 40 grades really don't detract from the issue.

As a generalization, anything from a 20 grade to 40 grade will often suffice to retard wear. It is VERY difficult, if not impossible, to see clear delineation of wear differential in UOA evidence when trying to split hairs on grades and wear.

...


I think the discussion here between xW-20 and xW-30 grade was focused on the viscosity difference for cold start-up flow. Not really talking about the wear aspects between them. If an engine manufacturer specifically calls out 0W-20 there very well could be a reason related to good cold oil flow on start-up to prevent engine rattles.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I think the discussion here between xW-20 and xW-30 grade was focused on the viscosity difference for cold start-up flow. Not really talking about the wear aspects between them. If an engine manufacturer specifically calls out 0W-20 there very well could be a reason related to good cold oil flow on start-up to prevent engine rattles.

It was 29* here this morning.Upon startup my engine just did its usual slight ticking,then faded away as it starts to warm up,as it has done since I bought it new.
I'm now leaning towards doing an oil change with a semi-synthetic or synthetic oil and/or a different brand filter;P1,M1,Bosch,or WIX. (I even thought about a FRAM XG
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)
 
I would fiddle with oil, but not the filter if I were you. Try thinner, but it really sounds like your problem is minor. Mine sounds like the top of the engine is coming through the hood when it happens.
eek.gif
 
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I would fiddle with oil, but not the filter if I were you. Try thinner, but it really sounds like your problem is minor. Mine sounds like the top of the engine is coming through the hood when it happens.
eek.gif


I have been doing a lot of research on the 0W20 and 0W30 oils. I am seeing a lot of results on the the 0W20 being a better choice over the 0W30. I'm going to see who has what oils on sale in these weights and decide then.PepBoys has M1@ $5 a qt. on Black Friday. Hmmmmmm.........
 
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I would fiddle with oil, but not the filter if I were you. Try thinner, but it really sounds like your problem is minor. Mine sounds like the top of the engine is coming through the hood when it happens.
eek.gif


I have been doing a lot of research on the 0W20 and 0W30 oils. I am seeing a lot of results on the the 0W20 being a better choice over the 0W30. I'm going to see who has what oils on sale in these weights and decide then.PepBoys has M1@ $5 a qt. on Black Friday. Hmmmmmm.........


I think you're on the right track with the 0w20. If you don't find a good sale I'm told Wally's has the QSUD in 0w20 which would be $21 bucks for a 5 qt jug, mighty hard to beat.
 
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