Best action shoot-out film ? honors goes to Heat IMHO..

CharlesInCharge said:
@billt460 I have a question.

During the scene where Neal is presenting to his crew the bank job, and an "are you in, or are you out" proposition. The audience sees very thoughtful close up affirmative responses from Chris and Michael. Very thoughtful deliberation and discussion with Neal. Then, oddly, the camera pulls back and Trejo says, "yeah, I'm in." Very unconvincing.
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I always thought it was: the first two, Val and Tom, had to think about it and do a little pondering before saying yes. They get to Trejo and he doesn't need to think, says yes right away. The laughter by the others that follows shows that they were humored by his instant, no thought, yeah I'm in attitude compared to themselves.

The way he is nervously looking around at the pay phone never led me to think he was backing out.

**After reading posts earlier today, I had to watch it again! Just finished about an hour ago.
 
The whole, "in or out" scene showed yet another caring side of DeNiro's character. Of how he looked out for his crew. When Sizemore was asked by DeNiro his reply was, "I roll with you Neil". To which DeNiro replied, "No, not this time Mike. This time it's different". He went on to explain how Michael had a wife, kids, property, T-Bonds, and other assets. And perhaps it was time to stop taking such extreme risks.

But Michael couldn't tear himself away. He said, "For me the action is the juice". He was addicted to the life of high stakes robbery. Much like a gambler gets addicted to "the action" more than the money itself.
 
billt460 said:
"The Town", while not quite as good as "Heat", certainly was up there. The bank and armored car heists were very well played out. Not to mention the chase scene, and it various shootouts through the narrow streets of Charlestown, was excellent.

It also had the same cat and mouse game between the head of the robbery crew, (Ben Affleck), and the police Captain, (Jon Hamm). And the big robbery at the end of Fenway Park in Boston was well executed.
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I personally think the town was better than Heat but I'm sure you disagree.

Points of note:

1. The Town. Based on true story of The No Name Gang.
2. The cops/ambulance/Cops. Again, a true homage to actual art heist. Still unsolved...
3. Boston, not L.A.

I have said that I will re-watch Heat but I saw the town in theaters and I was immediately very impressed. I ran it by my friend that lived in Boston that the budget for the film was 25 million dollars and she said that that was pretty much spot on and that they were not spending willy-nilly. Also used to exit the T at the bank that they mocked up with a fake name for the opening sequence.

Maybe it's a generational thing but I was really impressed with the town and I didn't need to tell people that I'll re-watch it to get a better opinion or look for things I didn't see. It wasn't perfect, no, but I feel the movie is criminally underrated.

Also. On the DVD there is an extended version and a theatrical version. Obviously I am a fan of the movie and I watch the extended version to see what it was like. I did NOT like. They changed it so much it actually was kind of bad. The theatrical version is a masterpiece.

Renner is the unstable psycho, first time it saves them the second time...
 
I am going to quickly follow up my above post by saying that yes I am in fact going to re-watch heat when I have 3 hours to myself to really take it in because I've never look for every nuance.. the response is about the film industry red are so passionate that I actually have upgraded my opinion of the film and now I just need to see it for myself.

I'm weird please forgive me.
 
schwinney said:
I personally think the town was better than Heat but I'm sure you disagree.
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In some ways it was. But overall I think Heat was the all around better film. Mainly because Michael Mann did more with the characters. The crew in "The Town" were more young and "punky". They also were nowhere near as disciplined, and or experienced of a crew as DeNiro's guys were.

They took too many chances. The best example was the armored car heist. Ben Affleck, (the leader), told Jeremy Renner, (Coughlin), that he didn't want to do that particular heist, because one of the drivers acted like he was, "special forces". The type who was almost looking for trouble so he could prove himself.

He tried to explain to Coughlin they didn't need to involve themselves in that type of potential trouble. He wanted to wait, and find another armored car that didn't have, what turned out to be, overly aggressive guards. But Coughlin had what amounted to, an itchy trigger finger, and didn't want to wait. Much like Michael's character in "Heat", he was addicted to "the juice". It served to be both their undoings.

The other thing was in "The Town", that whole crew, Affleck included, was run by 2 other older, more experienced guys that set the jobs up for them. Where in "Heat" DeNiro's crew set up their own jobs. Yes, they employed the help of both "Kelso" and "Nate" for their "scores". But they set up the entire mechanics of the job. Where as Affleck and his crew basically took orders.
 
billt460 said:
In some ways it was. But overall I think Heat was the all around better film. Mainly because Michael Mann did more with the characters. The crew in "The Town" were more young and "punky". They also were nowhere near as disciplined, and or experienced of a crew as DeNiro's guys were.

They took too many chances. The best example was the armored car heist. Ben Affleck, (the leader), told Jeremy Renner, (Coughlin), that he didn't want to do that particular heist, because one of the drivers acted like he was, "special forces". The type who was almost looking for trouble so he could prove himself.

He tried to explain to Coughlin they didn't need to involve themselves in that type of potential trouble. He wanted to wait, and find another armored car that didn't have, what turned out to be, overly aggressive guards. But Coughlin had what amounted to, an itchy trigger finger, and didn't want to wait. Much like Michael's character in "Heat", he was addicted to "the juice". It served to be both their undoings.

The other thing was in "The Town", that whole crew, Affleck included, was run by 2 other older, more experienced guys that set the jobs up for them. Where in "Heat" DeNiro's crew set up their own jobs. Yes, they employed the help of both "Kelso" and "Nate" for their "scores". But they set up the entire mechanics of the job. Where as Affleck and his crew basically took orders.
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"I don't like the gaaahd on this one, alright! Some guy that tucks his pants into his, G.I. Joe Combat boots." :d

So many great lines in this one. The love interest.. very intricately woven in. My thing is. She had to know.. and if you watch very closely, just before Hamm drops the bomb, she said she does.. "You know who I am?" She nods her head and kind of says yes..

Watching her lie into the phone through the binoculars...

The "two older guys," they were the Irish Boston mob racket (zip code 02118 tattoo.. one digit off from where I used to live.. but anyways) I think Affleck took ownership when he eventually offed them.

Valid points, and I like this discussion, just that I really have to say, hands down Affleck's best thing.

Coughlin was a true wildcard and I agree, he really was too reckless, although the first time he saved their butts. He was done waiting.

9 years, Doug. (Was it Doug?) Only nine years..

"Meet me at the switch" ...

Really wanted to post clips, but. Language.

Next time Skeletor walks into a bank with an AK..
 
billt460 said:
And don't forget the driver after getting out them of numerous jams and shootouts. As he burns the tires of the Jeep Grand Cherokee switch car over the bridge..... "Now THAT'S how you drive a F'ing car!"
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"Close the bridge." 🤣🤣

My friend's place of employment, on State St, was in the very corner of that shot. Tall brown building. Government Center stop on the Blue line of the T...

Also, Gary Cooper was DeNiro level good in his ONE scene (Doug McRae's father, has to die 5 times before he gets out of here. That's the hard truth...)

Make a change? Either you got heat or you don't.

Tell me this scene isn't just superb.



^ That clip is edited, and it is a good thing it was.
 
billt460 said:
These guys were heavily armed, violent criminals. Why do you think it was so out of the ordinary, that one of them had a hot temper that was directed at his cheating wife? Who in all likelihood was only with him because he took all the risk, while she sat home, scratched her butt, and got the reward.

And as far as the black guy, what difference would it have made if he had been white? You turn on a television today, and you'd swear the black population of this country was 83%, and not 13%. I admire Michael Mann for not falling for all the politically correct Hollywood crap. He casted the characters the way he wanted them cast. Not to be politically correct, or appease anyone's social continuity.

Waingro's, character (Kevin Gage), was a violent, masochistic killer. He murdered the armored car guard, who was zero threat to him or anyone else. So why wouldn't he kill a hooker? He had a thirst for violence that could only be quenched by cold blooded murder.None of these guys were ex Boy Scout s...... Including Pacino's character, Vince Hanna, who's personal life was a train wreck.

Pacino told DeNiro he knew he was going to rob A BANK.... Not THAT BANK. And DeNiro, (Neil McCauley), could not simply, "select another bank". They knew that bank had an over $12 million dollar cash load on that particular day.

They also intercepted that banks computerized burglar alarm system, and video cameras the night before, to be shut down minutes before they arrived. Besides, DeNiro didn't know they were set up by Waingro, until after the fact. Otherwise the shootout never would have happened. They would have pulled the whole thing off without firing a single shot.
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HEAT / LOL / You wrote exactly what I saw. My total take on the film. I have seen lots of fiims. I don't really enjoy many voiolent films UNLESS they have a real world true type story that could happen. I thought every thing, from the writing to the cast , the acting, even the filming + the music score were all dead on. Won't say the best film I have seen but do not see one flaw.
 
Queenie Blue said:
'Heat' is certainly top notch and 'The Town' is no slouch.

Others just off the top of my head...

Band of Brothers, The Pacific, 13 Hours, Lone Survivor, No Country For Old Men, and Hell Or High Water.
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I could imagine a sequel or even a tv show following the killer who got away after the car wreck in the end. He was some character.
If you met him odds were he was the last person you saw. A cold killer. Heads or tails!
 
Queenie Blue said:
I wished we would have seen the hotel shootout between Llewellyn and the Mexican gang near the end...Could've been glorious - bullets everywhere (woman poolside was floating).
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You guys got me popping No Country for Old Men in the DvD player! Have not seen that in a while. I got a small collection.... about 200 DvDs in my man cave. Wife probably has about 60 or so of her type rom/com movies and lots of comedy stuff that we both like. A couple of killer ones we have in our comedy collection of totally stupid (always gets some belly laughs) movies is STRIPES & What About Bob.... Just so happens to both have Murray but Dryfus is funny as hell when he wants to be too. :ROFLMAO:
 
schwinney said:
"Close the bridge." 🤣🤣

My friend's place of employment, on State St, was in the very corner of that shot. Tall brown building. Government Center stop on the Blue line of the T...

Also, Gary Cooper was DeNiro level good in his ONE scene (Doug McRae's father, has to die 5 times before he gets out of here. That's the hard truth...)

Make a change? Either you got heat or you don't.

Tell me this scene isn't just superb.



^ That clip is edited, and it is a good thing it was.
Click to expand...

Gary Cooper?
 
CharlesInCharge said:
While I prefer Heat, Ronin is nearly as good in all respects. Both are incredibly entertaining, thinking mans' action films with excellent plot, acting, writing, directing, and action scenes. Agree on the Wick, F&F, and I'd add anything James Bond, XXX, and similar are mind numbing...
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Yes! Thinking-man action movies are far, far better than just dumb speed/violence/nudity for the sake of cheap tix sales.

One of my personal favs, yet not well known, is Spy Game (Redford and Pitt). Lots of intrigue; makes you think and follow along. Good plot development. Some action, but it's integral to the story and not the storyline itself, so the action is warranted and not mind-numbing.
 
billt460 said:
The whole, "in or out" scene showed yet another caring side of DeNiro's character. Of how he looked out for his crew. When Sizemore was asked by DeNiro his reply was, "I roll with you Neil". To which DeNiro replied, "No, not this time Mike. This time it's different". He went on to explain how Michael had a wife, kids, property, T-Bonds, and other assets. And perhaps it was time to stop taking such extreme risks.

But Michael couldn't tear himself away. He said, "For me the action is the juice". He was addicted to the life of high stakes robbery. Much like a gambler gets addicted to "the action" more than the money itself.
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Yes, and there's many other scenes too where Neal's compassion or selflessness really shines through. Many of the scenes with his love interest, where he does not want to get her involved, reluctantly does, etc. At the end, instead of getting her tangled up in the mess, he walks away (as he said he would do, to walk away. There's others I'm forgetting, but his character is really deep and well thought out and internally consistent.
 
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