Best action shoot-out film ? honors goes to Heat IMHO..

[CharlesInCharge]

I may have to re-watch it. A couple of points to consider:

1. The call, from a pay phone. I am not a pursuit expert, and I know things were different in.. when did this come out, 1994? 1995? I was either 12 or 13. Okay.. seems "odd" because apparently during a pursuit. That seems strange to me. Like they wouldnt be converging.. or, if your point is, they were and he stopped to call before they did.

I will re-evaluate this point.

Now, Waingro's character.. he reminds me the most of Mr. French in The Departed. A total psycho. I did not like these characters, but.. I may see your point.

View attachment 86083

Now the black ex-con.. I think I would still have to call it "type-cast" because, it could have been any one of them that got shot through the window.. and wasn't he the driver, and they had to move to another car? Your points about "It wouldn't be uncommon".. what I get out of it is, a life of crime doesnt pay.

I can appreciate the drama aspect, however, and I'd leave a dishwashing job too lol.

I will re-evaluate.

I may be watching soon, when I get area to myself..

Trijo was being FOLLOWED, but there was no probable cause to arrest him. Remember, Pacino's crew had until then LOST SURVEILLANCE on DeNiros crew. They picked up SURVEILLANCE on Trijo. That's all.

Trijo knew he was being tailed. Trijo knew he would lead the police right back to DeNiro's crew, which was about to do the bank job.

This shows Trijo was extremely sophisticated, street smart, and loyal to DeNiro's crew. He warned DeNiro on a pay phone for security. And had to bail on his participation, to protect DeNiro and the bank job.

That's EXCELLENT writing and acting. In 1 minute, we learn about Trijo, street smarts to pick up a revolving tail on him, and to use a pay phone to warn the gang and then himself bounce from the job in play.

I don't understand the criticism.

----
Your comments illuminate the problem with wokism. This is the superb movie making, prior to the woke nonsense. It's just a good real-world sprinkling of whites, blacks, Hispanics, Italians, etc. in various good-guy and bad guy roles.

Let's not forget, while we are "type casting" 1 black guy as a ex-con, ALL of the bad corrupt guys are white, except Trijo (and the car theft dog fighting crew Pacino gets intel from). DeNiro, Kilmer, Waingro, the banker, Voght, Sizemore, the surgeon... They all indicate at time they have done prison time, or similar other violence felonies and jobs. Several of the seedy characters with serious character moral flaws are white - Judd cheater, Pacino's wife neglectful drug using cheating parent, the black guys corrupt jerk boss, and so forth.

Some of the good guys are black and Hispanic. In fact two major police officer characters, one is black and the other Hispanic.

The black ex-con is superb story telling, superb acting, and tells an incredible story with deep character development in about 3 minutes of total airtime for that character. And yes, his skill was driving. We learn that. He was the driver. Shooting at a getaway car, would obviously target the tires and the driver. None of this is surprising, and it is extremely well done.

You're putting way way way too much "wokism" interpretation into this film. It just tells a story about the reality of that lifestyle. Set down the "wokism."

Per the FBI statistics, black men in America btw reflect roughly only 6% of the population but about 50% of violent crime, varied by category of course. If anything, this film UNDER-REPRESENTS violent black felons. But it's just a movie. Move on with it, but down the "wokism."

 

[stormgol]

heat is in my top 5 favorite films. along with the first blade runner, the first alien, gladiator and the shawshank redemption.

 

[billt460]

Excellent analysis by CharlesInCharge. I would add something to DeNiro's character. He did have somewhat of a caring side, while being extremely tough and well disciplined. It showed in three phases.

First was him willing to attempt to pursue a love interest during this whole complicated mess, (Amy Brenneman). Who he was very skeptical of, after first meeting her at the restaurant counter.

Second was his total unselfishness when he rushed to Val Kilmer's aid after being shot. Taking on extreme risk in doing so.

And third, at the very end, after Pacino shoots him, he extends his hand for Pacino to hold as he bled to death. Knowing how that would effect Pacino. And showing him sensitivity Pacino didn't know he had. Especially after he told him in the restaurant that he wouldn't hesitate to kill him, if Pacino ever had gotten him boxed in.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Trijo was being FOLLOWED, but there was no probable cause to arrest him. Remember, Pacino's crew had until then LOST SURVEILLANCE on DeNiros crew. They picked up SURVEILLANCE on Trijo. That's all.

Trijo knew he was being tailed. Trijo knew he would lead the police right back to DeNiro's crew, which was about to do the bank job.

This shows Trijo was extremely sophisticated, street smart, and loyal to DeNiro's crew. He warned DeNiro on a pay phone for security. And had to bail on his participation, to protect DeNiro and the bank job.

That's EXCELLENT writing and acting. In 1 minute, we learn about Trijo, street smarts to pick up a revolving tail on him, and to use a pay phone to warn the gang and then himself bounce from the job in play.

I don't understand the criticism.

----
Your comments illuminate the problem with wokism. This is the superb movie making, prior to the woke nonsense. It's just a good real-world sprinkling of whites, blacks, Hispanics, Italians, etc. in various good-guy and bad guy roles.

Let's not forget, while we are "type casting" 1 black guy as a ex-con, ALL of the bad corrupt guys are white, except Trijo (and the car theft dog fighting crew Pacino gets intel from). DeNiro, Kilmer, Waingro, the banker, Voght, Sizemore, the surgeon... They all indicate at time they have done prison time, or similar other violence felonies and jobs. Several of the seedy characters with serious character moral flaws are white - Judd cheater, Pacino's wife neglectful drug using cheating parent, the black guys corrupt jerk boss, and so forth.

Some of the good guys are black and Hispanic. In fact two major police officer characters, one is black and the other Hispanic.

The black ex-con is superb story telling, superb acting, and tells an incredible story with deep character development in about 3 minutes of total airtime for that character. And yes, his skill was driving. We learn that. He was the driver. Shooting at a getaway car, would obviously target the tires and the driver. None of this is surprising, and it is extremely well done.

You're putting way way way too much "wokism" interpretation into this film. It just tells a story about the reality of that lifestyle. Set down the "wokism."

Per the FBI statistics, black men in America btw reflect roughly only 6% of the population but about 50% of violent crime, varied by category of course. If anything, this film UNDER-REPRESENTS violent black felons. But it's just a movie. Move on with it, but down the "wokism."

I don't subscribe to "wokism".. black characters being "killed off first" has been going on for a very long time in movies, it is a subtle thing but it has been going on.

I am now going to count how many times you reference "wokism" when it's old fashioned racism, lol.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Excellent analysis by CharlesInCharge. I would add something to DeNiro's character. He did have somewhat of a caring side, while being extremely tough and well disciplined. It showed in three phases.

First was him willing to attempt to pursue a love interest during this whole complicated mess, (Amy Brenneman). Who he was very skeptical of, after first meeting her at the restaurant counter.

Second was his total unselfishness when he rushed to Val Kilmer's aid after being shot. Taking on extreme risk in doing so.

And third, at the very end, after Pacino shoots him, he extends his hand for Pacino to hold as he bled to death. Knowing how that would effect Pacino. And showing him sensitivity Pacino didn't know he had. Especially after he told him in the restaurant that he wouldn't hesitate to kill him, if Pacino ever had gotten him boxed in.

Yeah, you'd think CharlesInCharge was one of the writers.

I'm actually kind of impressed.

So I will re-watch it tonight, didnt notice virtually all of what is being said so I may just have to start from a fresh sheet and watch it again.

I did like how they don't take the time to put the trunk down on the car, I had to think about that one lol..

First was him willing to attempt to pursue a love interest during this whole complicated mess, (Amy Brenneman). Who he was very skeptical of, after first meeting her at the restaurant counter.

"You will give him the chance." I actually forgot all about this.

And third, at the very end, after Pacino shoots him, he extends his hand for Pacino to hold as he bled to death. Knowing how that would effect Pacino. And showing him sensitivity Pacino didn't know he had. Especially after he told him in the restaurant that he wouldn't hesitate to kill him, if Pacino ever had gotten him boxed in.

Missed this as well.

Hmmm. Alright, let's see if I can pull it up here, i dont have the DVD..

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

heat is in my top 5 favorite films. along with the first blade runner, the first alien, gladiator and the shawshank redemption.

Shawshank Redemption, absolutely. Never seen Blade runner, would not have seen the first Alien as I'm not into scifi, and Gladiator.. Maximus Decimus Meridious?

I could point out Shawshank Redemption bits like some point out Heat bits. There is even a sign for that prison in Ohio. It is along Either I-71 or I-76, I think I-76...

 

[billt460]

I don't subscribe to "wokism".. black characters being "killed off first" has been going on for a very long time in movies, it is a subtle thing but it has been going on.

I am now going to count how many times you reference "wokism" when it's old fashioned racism, lol.

There was nothing "racist" about, or in this film. That's total hogwash. Dennis Haysbert, (the getaway driver), would have more than likely died anyway. The police had them totally boxed in, and the car had the tires shot out, and God knows what else. He had minimal weaponry, if he had any at all.

He would have never gotten away on foot. So it was only a matter of when he got killed, not if. Charles is correct in that this was all done, "pre wokism". It's all but taken over our society..... And needlessly damaged a lot of it in the process.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Excellent analysis by CharlesInCharge. I would add something to DeNiro's character. He did have somewhat of a caring side, while being extremely tough and well disciplined. It showed in three phases.

First was him willing to attempt to pursue a love interest during this whole complicated mess, (Amy Brenneman). Who he was very skeptical of, after first meeting her at the restaurant counter.

Second was his total unselfishness when he rushed to Val Kilmer's aid after being shot. Taking on extreme risk in doing so.

And third, at the very end, after Pacino shoots him, he extends his hand for Pacino to hold as he bled to death. Knowing how that would effect Pacino. And showing him sensitivity Pacino didn't know he had. Especially after he told him in the restaurant that he wouldn't hesitate to kill him, if Pacino ever had gotten him boxed in.

Brilliant observations, yet more evidence of the near unparalleled writing, subtle character development, acting, etc. DeNiro and Pacino are simply exceptional in their roles.

DeNiro's character Neal is exceptional. More on DeNiro's qualities.
Yes, very compassionate and loyal to Kilmer, risking himself to save him and also going to get him medical care. At huge personal risk. But also looking out for him and his marriage; instead of ratting out Judd's cheating to Kilmer, he knew it was not helpful and took a different tact.

Neal had compulsive intensity to tasks and duties - seeking dangerous and unnecessary revenge on the crooked banker who crossed them, for instance, and running down Waingro when it wasn't necessary to do so. This was his undoing, of course. A tragic quality, getting revenge on folks.

Neal's loyalty to Trijo, by being merciful in executing the suffering dying man. This is at, again, some cost and not without risk to DeNiro, who could have just left instead.

Neal's incredible strategic and instincts were shown when he stopped the bank job after suspecting Pacino was watching them, and they aborted. Then again dumping Pacino's team's tail driving thru a airport parking garage. Again, setting Pacino up to get intel on his crew. The opening armored truck attack. And many other instances. His crew had intense loyalty to him, and the back story would have been that they did a lot of jobs together, had unspoken trust of life/death together, etc.

Many other observations, but his character was so dynamic and not just a 1-dimensional "tough guy," as so many films are today.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

There was nothing "racist" about, or in this film. That's total hogwash. Dennis Haysbert, (the getaway driver), would have more than likely died anyway. The police had them totally boxed in, and the car had the tires shot out, and God knows what else. He had minimal weaponry, if he had any at all.

He would have never gotten away on foot. So it was only a matter of when he got killed, not if. Charles is correct in that this was all done, "pre wokism". It's all but taken over our society..... And needlessly damaged a lot of it in the process.

Except that I'm not subscribing to Wokism to even if CharlesInCharge is correct it was done pre-wokism - which is a good thing - the fact he got killed first COULD be taken as subtle racism, I get your argument that it wasn't.

Such passion on this film. I like it.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

I don't subscribe to "wokism".. black characters being "killed off first" has been going on for a very long time in movies, it is a subtle thing but it has been going on.

I am now going to count how many times you reference "wokism" when it's old fashioned racism, lol.

Weird though, in Heat only 1 black character dies. There's about 50 whites that die, including main characters DeNiro, Sizemore, Waingro, the banker, the opening scene has a bunch of white guards executed, etc. Whites comprise nearly all of the bad guy or corrupt characters.

To me it seems like wokism when someone is constantly searching for some race or gender issue that just not exist in society or in film, and over-correcting to try to right a perceived "injustice" that does not exist.

The black character your lamenting was killed, was probably the least bad character of any in that film. He was as much a victim of his circumstances and bad decision making more than he was a bad guy. He was abused - by a white guy - in his job. He was essentially taken advantage of by Neal's crew who needed a driver. He wasn't armed and really did not directly harm anyone, and he had a loving woman rooting for him. The black character was an extremely sympathetic character, which entirely cuts against all the stereotypes I think you're trying to manufacture. He seemed to be more of a victim of circumstances, than a bad guy... yet was killed - wrong place wrong time wrong associates... Mann was brilliant to write/direct this.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Except that I'm not subscribing to Wokism to even if CharlesInCharge is correct it was done pre-wokism - which is a good thing - the fact he got killed first COULD be taken as subtle racism, I get your argument that it wasn't.

Such passion on this film. I like it.

No. There is absolutely nothing racist in the way it was written, directed, acted, or portrayed. And if it was in any way racist, it had a racial slant that BENEFITED the black man, showing him as a victim of terrible societal circumstances. He was an actually very sympathetic likeable character, and the 1 minute of screen time we see of his grieving wife really hits this point home, that she was rooting for him to turn his life around and he made a bad decision and got killed.

Also, if you re-watch the bank heist scene, a lot of whites got killed, including a major character Sizemore.

You're trying really hard to find racism where it simply does not exist. And it's annoying wokism, whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

There appears to be a decent amount I missed/preconceived that appears to be messing up my grasp of "Heat."

So I will watch it again.

I actually found the whole movie.

 

[billt460]

Weird though, in Heat only 1 black character dies. There's about 50 whites that die, including main characters DeNiro, Sizemore, Waingro, the banker, the opening scene has a bunch of white guards executed, etc. Whites comprise nearly all of the bad guy or corrupt characters.......

This kind of black vs. white nonsense has been going on in television and films for decades. I remember a TV show from the mid / late 60's called "N.Y.P.D.", (Not "NYPD Blue" from the 80's / 90's).

This starred Jack Warden and Frank Converse as a couple of New York City cops on the job. It was written and produced by David Susskind. Susskind DEMANDED that ALL of the bad guys in the show were white. Even back then, before it was called "Wokism", it existed on the screen.

In fact I remember an episode of the show that starred Al Pacino in one of his very first acting roles. It also starred Jill Clayburgh along with him. Here is a small cut of that episode.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Weird though, in Heat only 1 black character dies. There's about 50 whites that die, including main characters DeNiro, Sizemore, Waingro, the banker, the opening scene has a bunch of white guards executed, etc. Whites comprise nearly all of the bad guy or corrupt characters.

To me it seems like wokism when someone is constantly searching for some race or gender issue that just not exist in society or in film, and over-correcting to try to right a perceived "injustice" that does not exist.

The black character your lamenting was killed, was probably the least bad character of any in that film. He was as much a victim of his circumstances and bad decision making more than he was a bad guy. He was abused - by a white guy - in his job. He was essentially taken advantage of by Neal's crew who needed a driver. He wasn't armed and really did not directly harm anyone, and he had a loving woman rooting for him. The black character was an extremely sympathetic character, which entirely cuts against all the stereotypes I think you're trying to manufacture. He seemed to be more of a victim of circumstances, than a bad guy... yet was killed - wrong place wrong time wrong associates... Mann was brilliant to write/direct this.

stereotypes you think I'm trying to manufacture

While I sometimes don't know what to make of your posts, this one, at least I respect that you are open to other possibilities.

A couple of things going on here, including that it's been so long that I forget if this was the first person killed in the movie, probably not as if they killed the guards in the armored car.. I appreciate that you're taking the time to take me through how this, that, etc all goes to depth. I wawas flat-out wrong on "in a chase" vs "tailed." That makes more sense.

And the mutual respect they had for each other. That is lost IN today's woke b******* world. So it is a welcome refresher.

What probably happened, was, I hadn't seen the film, walked in on the part that was probably somewhere just before the middle, saw the getaway, yes, DeNiro did come in "Parking lot, 5 minutes," I loved that. Then saw shortly thereafter the black guy get one in the head. This is probably why I remembered it as what I called "type-cast."

You are presenting why it really wasn't, and was he not the driver?? And they had to go to another car or shoot it out outside the car? I somewhat forget.. I need to re-watch.

I know what it is like to be passionate about movies, so, I will re-watch it, you are making an excellent case.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

This kind of black vs. white nonsense has been going on in television and films for decades. I remember a TV show from the mid / late 60's called "N.Y.P.D.", (Not "NYPD Blue" from the 80's / 90's).

This starred Jack Warden and Frank Converse as a couple of New York City cops on the job. It was written and produced by David Susskind. Susskind DEMANDED that ALL of the bad guys in the show were white. Even back then, before it was called "Wokism", it existed on the screen.

In fact I remember an episode of the show that starred Al Pacino in one of his very first acting roles. It also starred Jill Clayburgh along with him. Here is a small cut of that episode.

Remember Al Pacino in "And Justice For All?" Great actor. And Pacino is from NYC..

I didn't really like Raging Bull, unless there was stuff I missed in it, too.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

I am willing to abandon my initial take as it appears it may not have been valid.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

While I sometimes don't know what to make of your posts, this one, at least I respect that you are open to other possibilities.

A couple of things going on here, including that it's been so long that I forget if this was the first person killed in the movie, probably not as if they killed the guards in the armored car.. I appreciate that you're taking the time to take me through how this, that, etc all goes to depth. I wawas flat-out wrong on "in a chase" vs "tailed." That makes more sense.

And the mutual respect they had for each other. That is lost IN today's woke b******* world. So it is a welcome refresher.

What probably happened, was, I hadn't seen the film, walked in on the part that was probably somewhere just before the middle, saw the getaway, yes, DeNiro did come in "Parking lot, 5 minutes," I loved that. Then saw shortly thereafter the black guy get one in the head. This is probably why I remembered it as what I called "type-cast."

You are presenting why it really wasn't, and was he not the driver?? And they had to go to another car or shoot it out outside the car? I somewhat forget.. I need to re-watch.

I know what it is like to be passionate about movies, so, I will re-watch it, you are making an excellent case.

Neal's crew was tight, trained in weapons, motivated, loyal, etc. They would have been unable to just grab someone to go into the bank with them. Trijo was their driver. Trijo bounced. They needed a "driver to handle the scanners, do you remember the drill?" Driving would have naturally been a job which they could get a replacement for, with someone trusted. This sentence strongly suggests they had done jobs or trained together at some distant point in the past - so they could trust each other. Neal needed a driver and radio man. Not a bank man.

In about 15 seconds of dialogue and unspoken acting, we see/know that Neal recognized the guy from prison stints, knew his skills. When Trijo bailed, it was I guess fate Neal saw the guy. He needed a reliable con that could drive and handle radios. He asked the guy if he wanted to be in on the job and the guy considered his crummy situation and agreed.

If you watch the film carefully it all becomes evident. This is unlike modern films that spoon feed information. One has to carefully watch and follow it. You cannot just sit there on your cell phone texting friends and expect to follow this film. It's very detailed without a wasted line or scene.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Neal's crew was tight, trained in weapons, motivated, loyal, etc. They would have been unable to just grab someone to go into the bank with them. Trijo was their driver. Trijo bounced. They needed a "driver to handle the scanners, do you remember the drill?" Driving would have naturally been a job which they could get a replacement for, with someone trusted.

In about 15 seconds of dialogue and unspoken acting, we see/know that Neal recognized the guy from prison stints, knew his skills. When Trijo bailed, it was I guess fate Neal saw the guy. He needed a reliable con that could drive and handle radios. He asked the guy if he wanted to be in on the job and the guy considered his crummy situation and agreed.

If you watch the film carefully it all becomes evident. This is unlike modern films that spoon feed information. One has to carefully watch and follow it. You cannot just sit there on your cell phone texting friends and expect to follow this film. It's very detailed without a wasted line or scene.

I will watch it again.

It's clear I missed a lot.

 

[RDMgr]

Heat is a great movie with great gunfights. Pacino and DeNiro are only as they can be...great separately and together, Heat also has one of my favorite actors, Wes Studi.

If you're looking for a totally over-the-top gun fight it's the house shootout in Tarantino's Django Unchained.

 

[dnewton3]

I must confess I though we were constraining our assessments based on the action shoot-out concept.

As for the action scenes themselves, Heat has one of the more graphic and realistic action sequences I've seen. Den of Thieves isn't a great movie, but it's similar in terms of the shoot-out. I loved Saving Private Ryan for it's beach landing scene (also the rest of the movie had good fight scenes). Most all the movies which have been noted so far in this thread have decent shoot-out scenes (reasonably realistic). The rest of the movies are up for various fair critiscisms. Some of you are reviewing the entire movie; direction, acting, character development, plot, sub-plots ...

I confess that I prefer my action movies with at least some sense of reality. Heat does this in terms of the shoot-out. Ronin is awesome for it's car chase; probably one of the most realistic ones. Movies like John Wick or any of the F&F make me cringe due to the obscenely unrealistic action scenes.