Average new car price is $50K ? Insanity.

[AlphaOmega]

Let me tell you the amount of work I have done to my brother In laws Mercedes. The last big ticket item had to go to the dealer for a misfire. Oil wicking down the engine wiring harness from the cam seals. It required removal of the engine to the tune of 8000 dollars to replace it.

I have an e class from new that stickered back in 2015 at $69k. It’s an ~ 8 year old car at this point and few thousand miles short of 100k on odometer. I drive like a d@ckhead, always have. In the said time, the only repair it required was said leaking come seals. Repaired for ~$600 at a dealer. Easily noticeable with a basic look over without any disassembly. You have to let that problem sear for years and 10s of thousands of miles to cause any issues. It doesn’t happen over night or even over year.

Other than that, just brakes and oil swaps, which I do myself, and ATF swap. Could have fixed camshaft seals myself in about 2 hours(?), but it was time for a transmission service, which only a dealer or a special shop can do properly, so had dealer do the camshaft seals as well. $600 repair in 8 years/100k mi on Mercedes driven by a d@ickhead.

Still on original suspension, including dampers and still handles like it should. Still quiet and still Teutonic structure. Barely a rattle in the interior.

That’s on a “complicated” and “high maintenance” “overpriced” German car and is a typical experience of most owners.

My leather driver seat after nearly 100k mi of my butt. Barely a wrinkle on it:

 

[AlphaOmega]

Bottom line is people are going to do what they want. People are going to drive what they are comfortable with.

No one is arguing with this or said that this is not, nor should not be the case, so why bring this point up? We are merely discussing soundness of some logical constructs and not calling on hanging your “opponent”

 

[IndyIan]

I have an e class from new that stickered back in 2015 at $69k. It’s an ~ 8 year old car at this point and few thousand miles short of 100k on odometer. I drive like a d@ckhead, always have. In the said time, the only repair it required was said leaking come seals. Repaired for ~$600 at a dealer. Easily noticeable with a basic look over without any disassembly. You have to let that problem sear for years and 10s of thousands of miles to cause any issues. It doesn’t happen over night or even over year.

Other than that, just brakes and oil swaps, which I do myself, and ATF swap. Could have fixed camshaft seals myself in about 2 hours(?), but it was time for a transmission service, which only a dealer or a special shop can do properly, so had dealer do the camshaft seals as well. $600 repair in 8 years/100k mi on Mercedes driven by a d@ickhead.

Still on original suspension, including dampers and still handles like it should. Still quiet and still Teutonic structure. Barely a rattle in the interior.

That’s on a “complicated” and “high maintenance” “overpriced” German car and is a typical experience of most owners.

My leather driver seat after nearly 100k mi of my butt. Barely a wrinkle on it:
View attachment 148406

Looks good! What's the trade value now though? Probably 1/3 of new unless its an AMG, so someone's been eating $5-6k/year depreciation, and how long do dare run it to where the depreciation curve starts to flatten out and the repair curve starts to rise?
For sure I would drive a MB if it ever penciled out to Outback running costs, never mind the Focus running costs, but it doesn't work out, and the $4-5k saved per year with simpler cars, for 17 years pretty much covers university for my 2 kids...

 

[CKN]

Bottom line is people are going to do what they want. People are going to drive what they are comfortable with. To be honest after putting about 200 miles on the kids 2003 Duramax with 217,000 miles on it I can tell If I ever need a new truck again...I am going to find something like that. I was afraid of the diesel before. Not so much now.

Exactly-this is why - the "world is coming to the end because the average car payment is blah, blah, blah,". OR-the similar threads are becoming tiresome and repetitive. It's fashionable on here to knock new cars, the features, costs, the safety items ,etc. (I'm such a good driver you know I don't need any collision avoidance systems). Yet-I am still looking for the thread "please post a picture of you beat up beater".

 

[SC Maintenance]

(I'm such a good driver you know I don't need any collision avoidance systems).

If your really experienced and defensive you can stay out of harms way much of the time, but anyone that thinks they can react as fast as a collision avoidance system is delusional.

But, you can still get all that for under $30K - so you can't justify $50K for safety either.

 

[odie]

High gas prices were enough to go small ( lower payments and gas fills ) . That was in '79 until this day and beyond . Oil is now $76 . Gas is over $3.50 . This doesn't include the increase when summer blend arrives . Usually tacks on 15 cents or so .

Oil : $80.36 . Gas will likely hit $3.60+. Saudi Arabia cutting production . Good to have no auto loan payments and vehicles that get 36+ miles per gallon . Last payment was in 2019 (?) or was that '20 ?

 

[AlphaOmega]

Looks good! What's the trade value now though? Probably 1/3 of new unless its an AMG, so someone's been eating $5-6k/year depreciation, and how long do dare run it to where the depreciation curve starts to flatten out and the repair curve starts to rise?
For sure I would drive a MB if it ever penciled out to Outback running costs, never mind the Focus running costs, but it doesn't work out, and the $4-5k saved per year with simpler cars, for 17 years pretty much covers university for my 2 kids...

Thanks. I think you’re more or less on target with respect to depreciation. My outlook on cars - and I like cars - is that owning one is an experience, and we live once. I could have driven a “Corolla”, but instead I’ve driven my car and enjoyed nearly every minute of it and still do!

The way it feels at nearly 100k is nearly like new. I don’t see why it couldn’t go another 100k without feeling like an old shack on wheels.

In about 8 years it had:

• about 10-12 self-performed oil changes about $40 ish in parts, +/-, so about $500.
• x2 dealer performed ATF swaps, $700 a pop, so $1,400
• and a $600 leaking camshaft seals repair.
• And maybe $300 of self-performed brake jobs

Total maintenance is less than or about $2,500 in 8 years for a naturally aspirated, 300 hp, genuinely premium sedan with a permanent all wheel drive, that’s a mile eater, quiet, and “on rails” like at well over a 100 mph. And only $600 in repairs.

I expect about $1,500 for engine and trans mount at the dealer in the next 2 years, spark plugs (I’ll do myself), maybe a few levers in suspension(?) - that’s as far as maintenance. So up to $5k in total for maintenance in 10 years and that’s if mounts and suspension levers will actually be needed.

If someone would have bought the car from me for $20k or whatever it’s worth, I’d be somewhat surprised if it costed them more than $5k (in maintenance, wear and tear) over the next 100k miles. Repairs are hard to predict, as things like alternators, I don’t know, accessory belt tensioner, some sensors, coil/s might come into play, but got **** it it feels bullet-proof thus far . I confidently expect to own it for another 4 years, short of any black swan event

 

[The Critic]

Thanks. I think you’re more or less on target with respect to depreciation. My outlook on cars - and I like cars - is that owning one is an experience, and we live once. I could have driven a “Corolla”, but instead I’ve driven my car and enjoyed nearly every minute of it and still do!

The way it feels at nearly 100k is nearly like new. I don’t see why it couldn’t go another 100k without feeling like an old shack on wheels.

In about 8 years it had:

• about 10-12 self-performed oil changes about $40 ish in parts, +/-, so about $500.
• x2 dealer performed ATF swaps, $700 a pop, so $1,400
• and a $600 leaking camshaft seals. And maybe $300 of self-performed brake jobs

Total maintenance is less than or about $2,500 in 8 years for a naturally aspirated, 300 hp, genuinely premium sedan with a permanent all wheel drive, that’s a mile eater, quiet, and “on rails” like at well over a 100 mph. And only $600 in repairs.

I expect about $1,500 for engine and trans mount at the dealer in the next 2 years, spark plugs (I’ll do myself), maybe a few levers in suspension(?) - that’s as far as maintenance. So up to $5k in total for maintenance in 10 years and that’s if mounts and suspension levers will actually be needed.

If someone would have bought the car from me for $20k or whatever it’s worth, I’d be somewhat surprised if it costed them more than $5k (in maintenance, wear and tear) over the next 100k miles. Repairs are hard to predict, as things like alternators, I don’t know, accessory belt tensioner, some sensors, coil/s might come into play, but got **** it it feels bullet-proof thus far . I confidently expect to own it for another 4 years, short of any black swan event

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/2016-mb-e350-sell-or-keep.346713/

 

[AlphaOmega]

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/2016-mb-e350-sell-or-keep.346713/

—74K: Replaced driver side cylinder head due to a seized spark plug on Cyl #5. This was a $5-6K job.—

That sounds like a black swan event/anomaly. Personally, I wouldn’t take such an event into a consideration when researching a car to purchase.

— 147K: Replaced engine harness, ECU and intake/exhaust cam sensors due to oil intrusion into the wiring harness. I found the leak during a service visit. Also replaced engine and transmission mounts (collapsed), dipstick (due to failed o-ring) and crankcase vent valve (w/drip pan). The tech removed the engine for this repair and billed 20+ hours. In total, it was probably a $10K visit. —

The same issue mentioned by @ls1mike. Leaking camshaft seals are a known issue and the part has been updated. How long does it have to sweat oil for it to permeate engine wiring harness and damage ECU? For years and 10s of thousands of miles. However, nothing needs disassembling to observe said camshafts and whether there is oil residue around them. I noticed mine around 70k mi and took care of around 76k mi for $600. That was 2 years/24k mi ago.

That being said, buying a car where owner was neglectful of maintenance and where engine had to be opened up and also removed and reinstalled would not be my cup of tea, Merc or not

 

[KrisZ]

Without getting political, what is the target population of the USA?

Canada is typically about 1/10th, 75% living within 100 miles of the US boarder.
Everyone who wants to work can find a job, but the government wants to grow the economy.
I ask what for and who for?
Every mayor wants to grow their cities and reduce the carbon footprint at the same time.
I ask what wrong with the size it is?
They say the population is aging and we need more young people to look after the old.
I ask what about when those young people get old, bring in another 2 million care givers?
They say there's a shortage of "affordable" housing.
I say stop growing the population.

I don’t get this fixation on perpetual growth by any means too.

Here is why. US population roughly doubled from the 60s to now, yet take a look at government spending. That's how you can run up trillions of debt, empty promises of growth and that because of growth, they need to spend more. Round and round we go.

 

[The Critic]

The same issue mentioned by @ls1mike. Leaking camshaft seals are a known issue and the part has been updated. How long does it have to sweat oil for it to permeate engine wiring harness and damage ECU? For years and 10s of thousands of miles. However, nothing needs disassembling to observe said camshafts and whether there is oil residue around them. I noticed mine around 70k mi and took care of around 76k mi for $600. That was 2 years/24k mi ago.

That being said, buying a car where owner was neglectful of maintenance and where engine had to be opened up and also removed and reinstalled would not be my cup of tea, Merc or not

Not long. The oil can wick pretty quickly. It is usually the cam sensors that "leak" and are often the origin of this issue.

Don't forget the two sets of engine/trans mounts ($2k/ea) and the forward collision camera ($1500) that was just replaced last year.

Also, you are overdue for plugs - they are due every 5/50K on the 276 engines.

 

[ls1mike]

—74K: Replaced driver side cylinder head due to a seized spark plug on Cyl #5. This was a $5-6K job.—

That sounds like a black swan event/anomaly. Personally, I wouldn’t take such an event into a consideration when researching a car to purchase.

— 147K: Replaced engine harness, ECU and intake/exhaust cam sensors due to oil intrusion into the wiring harness. I found the leak during a service visit. Also replaced engine and transmission mounts (collapsed), dipstick (due to failed o-ring) and crankcase vent valve (w/drip pan). The tech removed the engine for this repair and billed 20+ hours. In total, it was probably a $10K visit. —

The same issue mentioned by @ls1mike. Leaking camshaft seals are a known issue and the part has been updated. How long does it have to sweat oil for it to permeate engine wiring harness and damage ECU? For years and 10s of thousands of miles. However, nothing needs disassembling to observe said camshafts and whether there is oil residue around them. I noticed mine around 70k mi and took care of around 76k mi for $600. That was 2 years/24k mi ago.

That being said, buying a car where owner was neglectful of maintenance and where engine had to be opened up and also removed and reinstalled would not be my cup of tea, Merc or not

It was quick on my Brother in law's car. Engine came out at 54,000 miles to fix it, no update at the time. They caught it during a service at the dealer. I looked at it and said "I can LS swap it or you can have the dealer deal with that one" LOL
Wicking happens quick, Mercedes isn't the only car to have the problem, just cost a bunch to get it fixed with no guarantee it won't happen again. At least for the Brother in law's car.

 

[userfriendly]

I think my dream truck at this point would be a crew cab LBZ Silverado very well equipped (I think that'd be a LT3 package?). I'd HAVE to garage that in the winter for sure.

With the amount of snow I get, my dream vehicle is the 2022 JD 1025 on your list.

 

[leadcounsel]

I have an e class from new that stickered back in 2015 at $69k. It’s an ~ 8 year old car at this point and few thousand miles short of 100k on odometer. I drive like a d@ckhead, always have. In the said time, the only repair it required was said leaking come seals. Repaired for ~$600 at a dealer. Easily noticeable with a basic look over without any disassembly. You have to let that problem sear for years and 10s of thousands of miles to cause any issues. It doesn’t happen over night or even over year.

Other than that, just brakes and oil swaps, which I do myself, and ATF swap. Could have fixed camshaft seals myself in about 2 hours(?), but it was time for a transmission service, which only a dealer or a special shop can do properly, so had dealer do the camshaft seals as well. $600 repair in 8 years/100k mi on Mercedes

While on the surface that might sound like "impressive" reliability, 8 years and 100k is not exactly putting it thru its paces. Additionally, in todays' dollars that's a $150,000 car. (Yeah, the official inflation numbers would dishonestly state $87,000, but in reality with the cost of practically everything having doubled in this period, it's probably closer to $150k). I surely would hope it looks and performs as new considering I would expect something that expensive to last 30 years and 500,000 miles. I've had $30,000 vehicles that have looked nearly as good with nearly twice the mileage. At 8 years and 100k miles I'd expect a modern car to be just getting broken in.

I'm not attempting to be argumentative, but the point is that was a mountain of money in 2015. I would hope with barely using it that it has held up well. I think it is reasonable to say that was an upper echelon purchase price for a vehicle then, and now.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Not long. The oil can wick pretty quickly.

Hmmm. How quickly?

Don't forget the two sets of engine/trans mounts ($2k/ea)

$1,500 from my exploring. Yes, that’s still an item to be done every 80k mi. I don’t know why my car does not seem to be affected at nearly 100k mi (no shake, in gear, at idle), im just guessing it’s maybe due to it being luxury trim, so it has a suspension with more energy displacement and rides on 17 wheels instead of 18s that the much more common “sport” uses(?) I don’t know…

Also, you are overdue for plugs - they are due every 5/50K on the 276 engines.

I forgot I had them swapped around 50-60k mi at non-dealer shop, IIRC for ~$400

 

[The Critic]

Hmmm. How quickly?

$1,500 from my exploring. Yes, that’s still an item to be done every 80k mi. I don’t know why my car does not seem to be affected at nearly 100k mi (no shake, in gear, at idle), im just guessing it’s maybe due to it being luxury trim, so it has a suspension with more energy displacement and rides on 17 wheels instead of 18s that the much more common “sport” uses(?) I don’t know…

I forgot I had them swapped around 50-60k mi at non-dealer shop, IIRC for ~$400

Hard to say, but you might want to consider replacing the cam sensors proactively.

Check the trans mount for saggage, that is usually when techs know to upsell all 3.

 

[AlphaOmega]

At 8 years and 100k miles I'd expect a modern car to be just getting broken in.

And that’s how it feels. I don’t think its reliability is impressive, but rather in the ballpark of expected. Just that some people have, I think, unjustifiable perception that Mercs are overly complex, overpriced, and unreliable. While some are complex and therefore more things to go wrong: twin turbo 500hp variety, but many pedestrian ones are very prudent cars to own, considering what one gets

in todays' dollars that's a $150,000 car. (Yeah, the official inflation numbers would dishonestly state $87,000, but in reality with the cost of practically everything having doubled in this period, it's probably closer to $150k)

Don’t forget that technological progress makes things cheaper too. Today’s much better version of a yesterday’s $1,000 sensor can be had for $100, and so on.

 

[TiGeo]

If people are willing to pay sticker and a "market adjustment price" on top of it, the automakers and dealers will keep prices high, or push them higher. That's how it works.

You mispelled "If banks are willing to lend money/give loans for vehicles at or above sticker....."

 

[leadcounsel]

Don’t forget that technological progress makes things cheaper too. Today’s much better version of a yesterday’s $1,000 sensor can be had for $100, and so on.

In some ways yes, in other ways no.

Example. Coil/leaf springs have served as very reliable, long lasting, cost effective suspension. However, to pick on Audi, it installed these overly complex and expensive suspension systems that tended to fail around year 15 and the repair expense essentially totaled the cars.

Technology has also often directly, or indirectly, killed people. I'm thinking of the defective Takata airbags that activated without cause and/or just plain killed people due to fragments or other problems. Or I'm thinking of the tech laden cars cause either distractions or just plain bad driving thru bad habits formed around tech comforts (e.g. lane change assist). I won't argue against some tech having saved lives, airbags, ABS, backup cameras, crumple zones, traction control, etc. So it's a mixed bag. No universal clear answer on "newer is better." It's yes, and no, depending.

 

[Kurtatron]

Exactly-this is why - the "world is coming to the end because the average car payment is blah, blah, blah,". OR-the similar threads are becoming tiresome and repetitive. It's fashionable on here to knock new cars, the features, costs, the safety items ,etc. (I'm such a good driver you know I don't need any collision avoidance systems). Yet-I am still looking for the thread "please post a picture of you beat up beater".

the newest car I’ve owned is 2002. So I’m in the beater crowd. I do complain about newer cars a lot, mostly criticizing the excessive tech. I think what justifies my complaints is that we aren’t even given the option. For all the differing myriad of reasons why simple, low tech, economy boxes are not made, they just aren’t.

I’d love to see the Toyota Corolla remain low tech with minimal features so I can buy a used one down the line. But they’re just not going that way. More electronics, gizmos, gadgets, and creature comforts. If you’re not a beater loving cheapskate, then you have nothing to complain about, unlike us. So our complaints have a reason behind them, because our ideal cars are fading into oblivion. Your preferences are not being taken away.

I just don’t think a 2023 Toyota Camry will be easier/cheaper to maintain than a 2003 Camry today vs in 20 years when the 2023 Camry is also 20 years old.

Imagine if the case was reversed. The beater crowd got their way and manufacturers only built the cheapest, easiest to maintain, and most robust economy boxes ever. You would surely complain about this wouldn’t you?