AutoZone Fires Worker Who Stopped Robbery

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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: chevyboy14
i mean i could miss the robber and hit a aerosol can full of you name it cause an explosion


Not unless you were firing tracers!

Stop with the movie watching, put on some safety glasses, go plinking at the dump and see what happens when you hit a can of starting fluid. Pssssssssss....


It launches like a rocket! There is more than enough kinetic energy there to do some damage!
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Neither my employer, nor anyone else, gets to dictate that I place my life in the hands of an armed stranger of unknown mental and emotional stability, regardless of the "odds".


So in other words you want to replace one risk with another greater risk???!? Great thinking!


I don't need you to put words in my mouth.

Hoping that someone threatening me with a gun won't kill me out of the goodness of their heart is unacceptable.

The value you place on your own life is your concern.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear


Statistically speaking, insurance companies know their number more than average Joe, and when they ask you to do things certain way, statistically speaking they are right.


Are there available statistics taking into account who Mr. McLean is or what his abilities are or what training he has or how well functions in that sort of situation? Did anyone consult Google or Watson prioviding all information available at the time to come up with a valid scenario specific risk assessment?

Originally Posted By: Clint Eastwood

A man's got to know his limitations.
 
Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
How does this align to armament and rules and regulations?

Fleetmon said:
If you really want statistices, stay in NJ....you may become one.


By the numbers, Im a bit safer in NJ than in PA.




Funny thing is, the "safest" states in New England are NH, VT, and ME. All of which have very "open" firearms regulations. For example, Vermont has an open carry system for handguns with no permits required. Yet MA has very strict gun laws.


And two cities with the STRICTEST gun laws in the country (Chicago and DC) are essentially war zones.
 
This entire statistical analysis is based on the flawed theory that the policy is about protecting the welfare ("lives") of people. It has nothing to do with that, it has to do entirely with protecting the company from a successful lawsuit, nothing else.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I think McLean had every reason to believe his boss was in mortal danger and it's to his credit that he ran "back into the fire" to make sure that didn't happen. That he didn't backshoot the fleeing badguy, and that it apparently was a calculated act, shows McLean had good judgement.

AutoZone could have handled this in better ways... despite their "policy." Well, they are free to execute their policy and they are also entitled to reap the consequences. I have no doubt McLean is going to find a MUCH better job where his courage ad coolheadedness is better appreciated.

For my part, I am no longer in "The Zone." My money will no longer go to fill their coffers. Considering who most of their customers are and how most of that demographic thinks, this is going to hurt....


+1 Well said...me too...unless they apologize I am off their customer list.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Youre spewing a lot of hot air here.


MAybe but I won't be spewing any money at an Autozone.
 
If anything, this thread has really brought out the gun control advocates. You
guys have put yourselves on the map, right out in the open, front and center.
 
The fact that people can't differentiate gun control from the decision making process of why Autozone made the policy that they did and stuck by it is absurd. It is not a question of gun control at all.

But the lack of reason, and inability to reasonably discuss from that point of view, is why everyone gets labeled as a joe shot 'em up, and the gun control people end up pushing their agenda more and more.

And then when 300k guns are stolen per year, because the gun owners did not properly protect them, and they go into the hands of thieves, the situation propagates. That's not a justification for gun control, that's a justification for gun owners to take their heads out of the sand and recognize that they aren't living up to their responsibility, which propagates the problem... Which apparently doesnt happen, and again works in favor of those pushing gun control.

If this was a discussion of how to deal with the tactical situation if someone was shopping in the store, it would be one thing. It isn't. It's a question of why AZ sets the policy they did, based upon cost, which is directly related to outcomes. I've posted the basis for it as best as I can see. I've seen nothing but unfounded d knee jerk responses that may actually be more endangering than the AZ approach. This doesn't mean anything to the contrary of the premise that an armed society is more polite, that thieves will think twice if people who are armed are present, etc.

But that's not the situation we have here and now, so while getting to that point is a good goal, it's not reality for now. Less gun control, unhampered by localities and states is a good thing, but must be coupled to far more responsibility on part of the owners, so that the armed, safe society can be achieved (200-600k gun thefts per year is unacceptable).. I hope we get there in a reasonable time. All the statistics and basis for lower crime indicate that it should be the case, but again, it's not the situation that we have yet.

I fault az for their decision, but can understand, especially based upon study of millions of outcomes, why they set policy how they do, and believe they made the right decision from a business perspective, which does indeed minimize loss of life to the greatest extent.

But since nobody is capable of discussing that point in a reasonable manner with actual basis to support what has been stated to the contrary, which is all purely speculation or some calling to teach thieves a lesson, this is nothing but a waste of time.
 
Originally Posted By: PZR2874
Originally Posted By: Roadkingnc
I carry, better to be job hunting than dead


This.

I'd be glad to get fired from a company that would have let me go due to that garbage.

Plus, their insurance has to now pay him unemployment.... Couldn't have happened at a better time in my eyes.... Stay home with your new baby and wife for a bit while you look for another job. And get semi-paid for it.


Wrong, you don't get unemployment if you are fired due to misconduct.
 
Once upon a time, in a land called America, personal responsibility was treasured and encouraged. Like Camelot, that land has disappeared.
 
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I think McLean had every reason to believe his boss was in mortal danger and it's to his credit that he ran "back into the fire" to make sure that didn't happen. That he didn't backshoot the fleeing badguy, and that it apparently was a calculated act, shows McLean had good judgement.

AutoZone could have handled this in better ways... despite their "policy." Well, they are free to execute their policy and they are also entitled to reap the consequences. I have no doubt McLean is going to find a MUCH better job where his courage ad coolheadedness is better appreciated.

For my part, I am no longer in "The Zone." My money will no longer go to fill their coffers. Considering who most of their customers are and how most of that demographic thinks, this is going to hurt....


+1 Well said...me too...unless they apologize I am off their customer list.


Well said, add me to that list as well. McLean deserves a better job and I have a feeling he'll get one too!
 
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Originally Posted By: PandaBear


Statistically speaking, insurance companies know their number more than average Joe, and when they ask you to do things certain way, statistically speaking they are right.


Are there available statistics taking into account who Mr. McLean is or what his abilities are or what training he has or how well functions in that sort of situation? Did anyone consult Google or Watson prioviding all information available at the time to come up with a valid scenario specific risk assessment?


So you suggest a company should have a wavering policy regarding to how to react to every situation by every possible personal in every district? That itself is not a policy, but no policy at all. Like I said, unless Autozone mandate all employee to go through armed security service training and qualification, they have to assume their employee to not know how to shoot a gun and how to defuse the situation safely when dealing with an armed robbery. However they did not, so they have to assume that it is safer to not escalate the situation with another possible firearm or resistance, and assume that most arm robber only wants valuable (which statistic is already provided by JHZR2).

Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Neither my employer, nor anyone else, gets to dictate that I place my life in the hands of an armed stranger of unknown mental and emotional stability, regardless of the "odds".


So in other words you want to replace one risk with another greater risk???!? Great thinking!


I don't need you to put words in my mouth.

Hoping that someone threatening me with a gun won't kill me out of the goodness of their heart is unacceptable.

The value you place on your own life is your concern.


But you are placing other peoples' lives (customers and other employees) in YOUR hand, and you are dictating them to go through what YOU think is the best way to get out of the situation as safe as possible.

Doing so you are 1) assume that you can find a gun easily when needed, 2) you will not be overpowered and have the gun taken away from you by the robber (this happened before when a court police was overpowered and the gun taken out of her hand and used by a defendant to escape the court, and killed others when met with resistance to surrender their cars), 3) you will shoot accurately at the robber when needed and not a bystander (customers or other employees), and 4) the robber would be disabled enough that he would not fire back when hit, and 5) if the robber fire back he would not hit you or bystanders.

Like JHZR2 said, you are trading one risk for another, and you assume that what you trade for is a lower risk. However even if the trade is really for a lower risk you are making that decision for not only just you, but other people in the situation (bystanders) as well.

A police chief was on the radio recently and describe how difficult it is to shoot someone in hostile and dynamic situation and not miss, even when he was a pretty good shooter at the range himself, he still miss once in a while at a stationary target, let alone a moving human with a weapon and other people around.
 
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Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
This entire statistical analysis is based on the flawed theory that the policy is about protecting the welfare ("lives") of people. It has nothing to do with that, it has to do entirely with protecting the company from a successful lawsuit, nothing else.


and what is the lawsuits based upon? The likely scenario of what is the safest way to get out of the situation without people (customers and employees) injured or killed.
 
Originally Posted By: Kruse
While I don't agree with what corporate did in this case, they do it to prevent a possible lawsuit in the future.
Let's just say, theoretically, that this hero would have a gun accident in the parking lot or in the store several years from now, for any reason whatsoever. And in this incident, a customer was injured or killed. The victim's lawyers will come back and convince the jury that Autozone KNEW that this guy was some gun-crazed, trigger-happy wacko and they condoned his actions by keeping him on the payroll after this robbery attempt. The "proof" that he was trigger-happy was that he was so quick to pull out a gun during this last robbery incident. (Hey, a jury would believe it, and they would award millions of dollars)
Another example of lawyers flushing this country down the toilet.

This.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
This whole discussion turned 2nd amendment debate is just stupid. You can bear arm all you want in your own home or in your own car, or even carry conceal but not in most work place, especially one that said in the policy of not allowing you to use it to resist a robbery.


Sorry but auto-zone store policy doesn't trump most state criminal law which allows the use of deadly force if threatened with death or bodily harm. Any citizen can intervene in the resistance of a class 1 felony. So, work place policy really doesn't apply. Any person would have been legally justified shooting the robber. The HR manager was probably from California.
lol.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
This whole discussion turned 2nd amendment debate is just stupid. You can bear arm all you want in your own home or in your own car, or even carry conceal but not in most work place, especially one that said in the policy of not allowing you to use it to resist a robbery.


Sorry but auto-zone store policy doesn't trump most state criminal law which allows the use of deadly force if threatened with death or bodily harm. Any citizen can intervene in the resistance of a class 1 felony. So, work place policy really doesn't apply. Any person would have been legally justified shooting the robber. The HR manager was probably from California.
lol.gif



While the use of deadly force may have been justified, that's not the issue at hand here. The issue here is that he violated the company's policy that prohibits the possession of weapons on company property.
 
Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
The issue here is that he violated the company's policy that prohibits the possession of weapons on company property.


I would suggest that a company wouldn't want to get into that fight. The Second Amendment doesn't have a lot of use if every privately owned public place is allowed to prohibit the exercise of that right.


A bar? Maybe. A parts store? Please....
 
Well, here in MN all they have to do is put up one of these signs and it's illegal to carry a firearm on the property even if you have a CCW permit.

best-buy-bans-gun-in-these-premises.jpg
 
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