Audio of Hyundai Sonata knock with non-OE filter

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: sayjac

I also read a post saying that Fram and Beck Arnley cartridge are the same as Kia/Hyundai OEM. While I can't say about the B/A, I can state that for a fact the Fram application for the 3.8L is NOT the same.


I posted today that the Fram and the Beck/A appeared to be identical to each other...is that what you're thinking of? I've don't remember anyone posting they were the same as OEM. If someone else did I agree, they are definitely not even close to OEM. Doesn't mean they won't work well, but they are certainly not a ringer for OEM.

The Wix you are using and the Napa/Gold I'm about to use sure look mighty close to OEM though. Only difference I can see is a minor one on the inner cage.

 

[BearZDefect]

I'd like to add to this thread that while some Hyundai 2.4 engines may exhibit this problem, not all do. I have used Purolator Classic and Pure 1, and premium Champ (K&N) oil filters on our 2009 with never any unusual startup or running noises. I suspect the few engines that do exhibit this problem have some weakness, like a timing chain tensioner issue as LeakSeals wrote, and it's cheaper for Hyundai to cover up the problem than fix it:

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
I hear a loose timing chain rattling against the guides, hitting valve cover, etc. My guess is oil pressure to the timing chain tensioner is being impacted by something. Oil filter choice? If so thats one really weak oil pump. I say replace the tensioner. Cheap fix. Bad filter adbv is a startup problem, not a continued noise like that. Even then I would not blame the filter, I would look for oil flow problems at the OCV, its screen and problems unlocking the VVT controller mechanism. Sounds like a general oil flow/pressure/design issue being masked by free flowing/low efficiency oil filters. Find out if the timing chain tensioner, oil control valve or the oil pump has been updated. Bet one of them has, and they are keeping quiet about it. If they can sell low efficiency high flow filters instead of warranty, why not.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: BearZDefect
I'd like to add to this thread that while some Hyundai 2.4 engines may exhibit this problem, not all do. I have used Purolator Classic and Pure 1, and premium Champ (K&N) oil filters on our 2009 with never any unusual startup or running noises. I suspect the few engines that do exhibit this problem have some weakness, like a timing chain tensioner issue as LeakSeals wrote, and it's cheaper for Hyundai to cover up the problem than fix it:


What are the differences between a Champ Labs made K&N filter and a Champ Labs STP filter? I don't know off the top of my head, so I don't know if they're even close enough to consider that a relevant example. It would be very interesting to see how other engines would react to an STP filter. Perhaps there could have even been somethign wrong with the filter I had? Who knows.

My car didn't knock with two other brands of aftermarket filters (Fram and Beck Arnley), so I suspect it was something to do with the filter.

But who knows, perhaps my engine is on the verge of exploding? All I know is it ran fine before and after using the STP filter with no noise. And I've put more than 20k miles on it since the knocking noise.

I guess I shall see.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666

What are the differences between a Champ Labs made K&N filter and a Champ Labs STP filter? I don't know off the top of my head, so I don't know if they're even close enough to consider that a relevant example. It would be very interesting to see how other engines would react to an STP filter...

All I know is it ran fine before and after using the STP filter with no noise. And I've put more than 20k miles on it since the knocking noise.



The K&N's are their premium filter, like the M1 filters by Champ Labs. The STP's are Champ's bottom feeder e-core filters in most sizes. The first TSB actually pictured an e-core filter on the bulletin, I'm not surprised the STP gave you problems.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep


The K&N's are their premium filter, like the M1 filters by Champ Labs. The STP's are Champ's bottom feeder e-core filters in most sizes.


I know that much. Again, I don't know if the filter I used was an Ecore. I have another STP filter for the Hyundai and it is not an Ecore. I know the K&N has a silicone ADBV, but does it also have a different bypass? I know they two filters obviously have different media.

 

[MobilinHyundia]

I own two 2009 Sonata's 2.4L. The filters I use at the moment are Napa Platinum and M1. Zero problems.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: sayjac

I also read a post saying that Fram and Beck Arnley cartridge are the same as Kia/Hyundai OEM. While I can't say about the B/A, I can state that for a fact the Fram application for the 3.8L is NOT the same.


I posted today that the Fram and the Beck/A appeared to be identical to each other...is that what you're thinking of? I've don't remember anyone posting they were the same as OEM. If someone else did I agree, they are definitely not even close to OEM. Doesn't mean they won't work well, but they are certainly not a ringer for OEM.

The Wix you are using and the Napa/Gold I'm about to use sure look mighty close to OEM though. Only difference I can see is a minor one on the inner cage.


I misread the post. The only difference I've seen is instead of 6 vertical trusses in the nylon center cage the NG/Wix uses 4. But in my usage as I posted, it's made no functional difference. Tight straight pleats, just like the oem.

As for the difference between the K&N and STP, besides the adbv difference some K&N use thread end bypass like M1, and others that have dome bypass use a coil spring design, not the the flat clicker design seen on the STP S2808. And, I'm sure the media is different, closer to a synthetic blend like M1. But, again said S2808 performed fine for an ~8k oci in Civic.

 

[stephen9666]

UPDATE

I'm bumping this thread because I got a knock again with an aftermarket filter.

I'm now at about 109,000 miles (40,000 miles since my original knock) and I recently removed a Motorcraft oil filter because the car started to knock again. The Motorcraft had been on the car for about 1800 miles and suddenly one day while driving I got the same knocking/rattling sound. I put on an OE filter and the noise hasn't come back.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I'd really like to know the details of the oiling system design in these cars. There is something about them that is unique and seems to make them very sensitive to oil filters. Plus, to really make things confusing, not all Hyundais seem to be sensitive, as seen in this thread where others have used many different filter brands with no ill effects.

 

[stephen9666]

I posted info about the Hyundai oiling system in another thread. I can't take the time to find it right now, but I'll try to later if I have time. It is different than the old standard system we all know from old V8 engines.

If I'm remembering correctly, it uses a dual stage pump and you can't buy the pump by itself because it's integrated into a balance shaft module that bolts to the bottom of the engine under the crank.

 

[dishdude]

Isn't this the world engine that Chrysler also uses? It seems strange that the Chrysler and Mitsubishi versions don't have this issue with aftermarket filters - I do realize there are some differences between the engines but I thought the bottom end was pretty much the same between all the variations.

It's also odd that this oil filter issue affects almost all of Hyundai's engines, and isn't confined to a particular engine.

 

[Smokescreen]

I must be a little lost or just have too little extra time in my life to be carrying out all this experimenting with different filters which may or may not result in knocking. For me that would be too much unnecessary stress of wondering what that noise is actually doing. I would simply get the filter that is reasonable on price that doesn't induce this knocking sound and just keep using it for the remainder of the engines days. Why keeping trying different ones? Why go against the TSB issued by Hyundai, there obviously is a design parameter they recognize. It doesn't matter the reasoning behind it...but hey, that's just me.

 

[stephen9666]

I'm not wasting extra time "experimenting."

The reason this hasn't happened in 40k miles is because I mostly use OE filters. I picked the Motorcraft up as part of an oil change deal a while ago because I have more than enough filters for the other vehicles.

The Motorcraft has different construction than the filter that previously caused a knock, so I decided to give it a try.

If you're so crunched on time, I'm surprised you had the time to read this thread and criticize...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
I posted info about the Hyundai oiling system in another thread. I can't take the time to find it right now, but I'll try to later if I have time. It is different than the old standard system we all know from old V8 engines.

If I'm remembering correctly, it uses a dual stage pump and you can't buy the pump by itself because it's integrated into a balance shaft module that bolts to the bottom of the engine under the crank.


I think I remember seeing that thread ... I probably even posted in it. But I can't recall the details, and I'm thinking there has to be something associated with the oil pump/system design that leads itself to being sensitive to oil filters for some reason.

I'm also wondering if some of these knocking/noise issues might be related to cheap counterfeit oil filters that don't flow hardly at all (due to cheap media and very high restriction) getting on these cars somehow. I'm thinking Hyundai engineers must have did enough testing on this issue to understand what's going on. I just can't believe that using a genuine good aftermarket brand oil filter that adds maybe 2~3 more delta-p at the most across the filter compared to the OEM filter makes the oiling system go bonkers.

 

[stchman]

My 1998 Chevrolet C1500 had an issue with start up noises with aftermarket oil filters. An AC Delco PF52 cured it.

I put a Fram Ultra on my Silverado and so far the engine sounds the same.

I have read that Hyundais and Kias are sensitive to the oil filter you put on them, so just stick to the OEM filter.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: stchman
I have read that Hyundais and Kias are sensitive to the oil filter you put on them, so just stick to the OEM filter.


They are definely sensitive to the oil filter used ... the real question is: Why?

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: stephen9666

What are the differences between a Champ Labs made K&N filter and a Champ Labs STP filter?
The K&N's are their premium filter, like the M1 filters by Champ Labs. The STP's are Champ's bottom feeder e-core filters in most sizes.


I know these quotes are from before we were informed, but for the benefit those those who may not yet have heard, Champion Laboratories no longer manufactures K&N oil filters. A few months ago, Jay Buckley from FRAM (who purchased Champion) posted that K&N oil filters are now made in Korea and are significantly reduced in quality from when they were made by Champ.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: stephen9666

What are the differences between a Champ Labs made K&N filter and a Champ Labs STP filter?
The K&N's are their premium filter, like the M1 filters by Champ Labs. The STP's are Champ's bottom feeder e-core filters in most sizes.


I know these quotes are from before we were informed, but for the benefit those those who may not yet have heard, Champion Laboratories no longer manufactures K&N oil filters. A few months ago, Jay Buckley from FRAM (who purchased Champion) posted that K&N oil filters are now made in Korea and are significantly reduced in quality from when they were made by Champ.


So apparently Fram and K&N couldn't work out a "deal" to continue to make filters when Fram bought Champion Labs. Cost went up, so they decided to degrade the design and move production to Korea?

 

[Errtt]

Knocking can't be a good thing but how bad can it be. I guess it would vary from engine to engine depending on engine condition, miles, how bad the knocking is etc.

I have a Hyundai w/2.4L and when I bought it, it had a Napa ProSelect filter. No knocking. Then I seen this knocking TSB thing regards to filters, so I bought a stash of OEMs and been using them since.
If I was to get the knocking, I'd be changing the filter right now.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

So apparently Fram and K&N couldn't work out a "deal" to continue to make filters when Fram bought Champion Labs. Cost went up, so they decided to degrade the design and move production to Korea?


K&N had no say if they were the ones being bought out.