Audi A4 vs. BMW 3-series for the DIY'er...?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
To me the bigger question for long term ownership is can you obtain the factory service manual? Certainly a "no" for the BMW and I suspect the same for the Audi. A Bentley gets you half way but there is no substitute for the real thing.
Normal maintenance accessibility should be a breeze on both cars.


The TIS is relatively easy to get a hold of for a BMW.

 

[JHZR2]

I have an e30 and a new BMW. Don't think tha with a good indy, they are more expensive than a honda to maintain, per my experience. It's the awd drivetrain that worries me. More and more power trains are doing turbo, so that is what it is. An I4 will inherently be easier to work on than an i6 and especially v6 if the hood setup isn't good, just because of accessibility.

Looking at the rear plugs on my 135i, I don't think the rear few will be easier to do.

But with 4cyl BMWs coming along, maybe no big deal. A 3er has a longer hood than my 135 too.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: dparm
They'll both be difficult. The Germans like to make things very complicated and require strange tools to do certain things (like triple-square sockets).

Coming from almost 10 years worth of Hondas/Acuras, my Audi was a really big change in terms of DIY maintenance.


Really? I haven't found mine to be difficult to work on at all so far. Everything is in "layers" and seems to come apart in a very logical fashion.



Nothing to date on my car has been impossible, but the way things come apart and go back together on my Audi versus my Honda is very very different. The Honda was designed to be easily serviced. The Audi was not.

My father, who has worked for German auto suppliers for nearly 30 years, says this is cultural. In Germany they do not work on their own cars -- they take them to independent shops or dealers. The Germans also take pride in the engineering aspect of something, even if it means that the part becomes needlessly complicated. Sometimes the Germans can be very clever with how they design a part, but you wonder if it really "needed" to be that clever.

This isn't meant as a knock on German car companies, by the way. I still like my Audi a lot, but as a DIY guy it's a little bit more work. Somehow I doubt BMWs are vastly better.

 

[OVERKILL]

Oh, they are definitely more work! I can agree with that. But I haven't needed any special tools or anything and things are definitely "easy" to do. There just appears to be more of a process (though that process is quite logical!) to doing things on these cars.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Originally Posted By: Foch

After the waranty period it's all me; that's why I'm asking the question....
So far my system has worked well for me.

It makes me wonder why you are considering BMW and Audi instead of Honda or Toyota.
German cars seem to have great engineering for the bits you see and feel and less than great in the places you don't normally see, while the Japanese cars are good but also consistent throughout.

I love BMWs but after 3 I think they are way too complicated and problematic when they get old.

 

[01rangerxl]

E36 and E46 BMWs were very DIY friendly cars, but I don't know how new ones are. Maintenance is super easy with the straight six in the older cars.

I avoid working on anything VW/Audi at all costs, at least models from the last decade or so. I remember those being the worst cars from my Jiffy Lube days. I hated the skid plates, oil filter location, and air filter boxes in particular. On some models the a/f housing was sort of tucked up under the fender and was a knuckle buster to open.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Nothing to date on my car has been impossible, but the way things come apart and go back together on my Audi versus my Honda is very very different. The Honda was designed to be easily serviced. The Audi was not.

My father, who has worked for German auto suppliers for nearly 30 years, says this is cultural. In Germany they do not work on their own cars -- they take them to independent shops or dealers. The Germans also take pride in the engineering aspect of something, even if it means that the part becomes needlessly complicated. Sometimes the Germans can be very clever with how they design a part, but you wonder if it really "needed" to be that clever.

This isn't meant as a knock on German car companies, by the way. I still like my Audi a lot, but as a DIY guy it's a little bit more work. Somehow I doubt BMWs are vastly better.


This is exactly it and BMWs are the same. Clever is a good word for it but "better" is not, at least IMHO.

Just like the engine lubrication system where the oil lines from the engine block to the cartridge filter pass through the engine mount. I could hardly believe that! But there it was, leaking as it does.

Here are a couple good pictures of that baby:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1576032

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Interesting, I had a '95 530i and never knew that! It was all the other issues that made me sell it at 50k miles to say nothing of the possibility of the nikasil bores krapping out

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Have you considered buying AMERICAN ?

IMO....Our vehicles are getting better and better every year....


I don't think there are any AWD manual transmission sedans from the American manufacturers. Not available in North America, anyway.

Lack of a dipstick on the BMWs was a factor in my buddy's decision to go with the '11 S4 over a 335xi (aftermarket dipstick available for the S4), but not as big a factor as the lack of a spare tire and associated run-flats. He has done oil changes on the S4, but has been unable to do fluid changes on the other drivetrain components because he doesn't know what fluids to use. They are not listed in his owner's manual and the dealership was clueless and unhelpful. Even Amsoil doesn't have fluids listed for all components. He hasn't yet had the desire to try to seek out a service manual or internet advice on the subject, so maybe it's not difficult to figure out once you look for it.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: Foch
I've been buying my wife a new (or almost new car) then keeping it for 10-12 years. The last 2 have been Saabs. Obviously, the first few years are warranty claims or basic DIY maintenace. After the waranty period it's all me; that's why I'm asking the question....

So far my system has worked well for me.


I don't think you are going to need any DIY maintenance for the 1st 10-12 years of ownership (I am guessing that comes to about 150k miles).

I think the driving experience and the safety of either 3 series or the A4 will be well worth any repair that you cannot do yourself. The bulk of the regular maintenance like oil changes, coolant and brake fluid replacement is no different than any other car.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Have you considered buying AMERICAN ?

IMO....Our vehicles are getting better and better every year....

Totally different approaches to the driving philosophy.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Have you considered buying AMERICAN ?

IMO....Our vehicles are getting better and better every year....

Totally different approaches to the driving philosophy.



That's exactly what Motor Trend said in their CTS-V vs M5 test. The Caddy won but only because it cost $30k less. The performance was the same between the two but the subjective feel was the BMW was far more balanced and well-rounded, and relied less on brute-force to get the same result. The drivers felt more at ease pushing the M5 around a track.

 

[andyd]

My 528es are 24 yrs old. Parts are cheap, most special tools can be replaced by the proper size hammer. German engineering takes a little getting used to. Some stuff is beautiful in its simplicity. Other stuff is way over thought. 20 yrs of bugs and a 35 yr old Stihl chainsaw introduced me to the German mindset.

 

[Vikas]

Some of the VW/Audi are difficult to work. For example, on some models, changing the battery would take you an hour or more. On others, changing the drive belts is multi-hour job and involves removing the front nose, draining A/C lines etc.

You might want to see if you can search some Youtube videos of a typical VW/Audi maintenance job. It will be definitely useful or at least it will make you laugh. I did Richpin06 had a VW for battery replacement. It just went on and on ...

- Vikas

 

[JOD]

Just to throw another option out there, a Legacy GT would worth consideration as well. When doing some work on a friend's Legacy, I was pretty impressed with just how easy the car was to service. The overall design philosophy seems to be centered around making the car serviceable, which is nice.

 

[spackard]

When I bought my BMW motorcycle I switched to buying Snap-On wrenches also; the metal is thin enough on the box-end and strong enough on the open-end to make a difference.

Years later, I bought a few used Stahlwille wrenches to get to either very large nuts that would have cost an arm+leg in anything else or because I was having a very hard time getting a bolt off.
The Stahlwilles fit like no other, like they designed the part for the wrench.

Early on I drilled a small hole in the fairing to fit a T-handle hex wrench through to remove one bolt for the oil filter. A lot of BMW mechanics asked me if it came from the factory that way. "Nope. It should have, though." Turned a multi-hour job into a 20 minute one.

 

[Foch]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Just to throw another option out there, a Legacy GT would worth consideration as well. When doing some work on a friend's Legacy, I was pretty impressed with just how easy the car was to service. The overall design philosophy seems to be centered around making the car serviceable, which is nice.


I've owned 3 Subarus over the years and I'm a big fan. I recently bought a 1995 Legacy w/200K+ and went through it top to bottom. This was my sons first car. Of course he totaled it about 3 weeks into his license...he now drives a Yaris.

But, we test drove a couple of new Outbacks last year and came away unimpressed. Both 'new' off the lot cars had the same steering wheel shake and the interiors seemed cheap with misaligned plastic pieces. They made my wife appreciate her Saab 9-5.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: dparm
That's exactly what Motor Trend said in their CTS-V vs M5 test. The Caddy won but only because it cost $30k less. The performance was the same between the two but the subjective feel was the BMW was far more balanced and well-rounded, and relied less on brute-force to get the same result. The drivers felt more at ease pushing the M5 around a track.


IMO, the new CTS-V is exceptionally refined in everyday driving compared to the M5, IF we're talking about the last generation.

The new M5 is a techno bomb just waiting to explode! It even has water cooled PCM'S. Ludicrous complexity.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: dparm
That's exactly what Motor Trend said in their CTS-V vs M5 test. The Caddy won but only because it cost $30k less. The performance was the same between the two but the subjective feel was the BMW was far more balanced and well-rounded, and relied less on brute-force to get the same result. The drivers felt more at ease pushing the M5 around a track.


IMO, the new CTS-V is exceptionally refined in everyday driving compared to the M5, IF we're talking about the last generation.

The new M5 is a techno bomb just waiting to explode! It even has water cooled PCM'S. Ludicrous complexity.



Vut Steven? You are not a fan of ze vater-cooled PCM's ja?

 

[dparm]

It also has a system that plays engine noise through the car stereo. So basically they add 500lbs of sound deadening and then $1500 in electronics to counteract it.