As to all the discussion about MMO

[maxa]

d00df00d-

You do sound like a an educated person and well versed. With someone with over 7000 posts I would think you would be on the ball a little bit. Hey- you do drive an M3-according to your avitar right???

Being in the OLD SCHOOL-PORCHE TURBO COMMUNTIY since the 80's(getting my hands dirty) there are always tricks and lessons to be learned till this day.. What makes WHP-TURBOS-INTERCOOLERS-IGNITION-OIL-AIR-INTAKE ETC..ETC...

You will look at engine and looks so stock...But why is it so much faster then everyone else.??? If your fortunate enough that someone shares that info with u...LEARN FROM IT...

Perfect example- for many years with RUF- 996TT-USED MODDED K-24--LOOKS exactly like a K-16-to an untrained eye..Then K-24/18G--WAS THE SECRET HYBRID-can make some serious WHP...It was hush-hush for years and years....Now its out and EVERYONE is a believer...The simpliest mods raise the most eyebrows..

Have a good weekend and drive safe.
ENJOY-ALMS-RACE-LAGUNA-GO FLYING LIZARDS

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I see you keep singling me out, what about the others in this thread that had positive results? Just wondering that's all.


You're the only one who keeps complaining about skeptics and misrepresenting what they're saying.


Misrepresenting what skeptics say, hardly. Lately I've been warning a few new guys what to expect when they don't have data to back up their positive experiences, especially when it comes to MMO.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d


Most of us have nothing to go on but words on the Internet. If we can't see what you see, why should we believe what you believe?

As someone says at another site. "Anecdotes are not the plural of data. Never have been. Never will be."

I have to wonder why no one with any sense is using synlube. Being that it got great "reports" from those who claim to use it.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I think personal experience counts for something. If somebody has used MMO and gotten positive results what is wrong with that person saying that here? Seems to me we are trying to find out what oil supplements are good and which ones are bad here. If people are not allowed to comment we will never find anything out.

...And if we believe everything we read, we're worse off than when we started.

Of course personal experience counts. It counts for the person in question. When it comes to convincing others, it takes more than say-so. At least, I would hope it does.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Mystic
I think personal experience counts for something. If somebody has used MMO and gotten positive results what is wrong with that person saying that here? Seems to me we are trying to find out what oil supplements are good and which ones are bad here. If people are not allowed to comment we will never find anything out.

...And if we believe everything we read, we're worse off than when we started.

Of course personal experience counts. It counts for the person in question. When it comes to convincing others, it takes more than say-so. At least, I would hope it does.


Only a fool believes everything they read. Smart people read, investigate, and learn. Then if something shows merit they try it for themselves. An open mind is the key to learning.

I still find it very interesting how many people have positive experiences with MMO, in spite of what the skeptics say. I think that actually bothers some people, and causes others not to post their positive results for fear of the skeptics. I'm sure you've tried things and had positive results, even w/o data to back it up. You might even have shared those positive experiences with others.

I tried Kreen on Trav's endorsement, I'm glad I did, no data only his testimony. I'm a good judge of character though, and knew he had no agenda.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I still find it very interesting how many people have positive experiences with MMO, in spite of what the skeptics say.

See, this is my case in point.

The skeptics are not saying that no one is having those experiences. They are saying the stories of those experiences are not credible without something to back them up.


Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm sure you've tried things and had positive results, even w/o data to back it up. You might even have shared those positive experiences with others.

Check, check, and check.

And do you know what happened when people called me on it?

I agreed.

And do you know what happened when people said they had no reason to believe me?

I said, "fair enough."

I fail to see your point.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I still find it very interesting how many people have positive experiences with MMO, in spite of what the skeptics say.

See, this is my case in point.

The skeptics are not saying that no one is having those experiences. They are saying the stories of those experiences are not credible without something to back them up.


Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm sure you've tried things and had positive results, even w/o data to back it up. You might even have shared those positive experiences with others.

Check, check, and check.

And do you know what happened when people called me on it?

I agreed.

And do you know what happened when people said they had no reason to believe me?

I said, "fair enough."

I fail to see your point.

Spoken like a true skeptic.

I say believe what you want, use what you want. In your case don't believe me, I've made this all up, and get a kick back from the nice people at Turtle Wax. In fact maybe you should put me on your ignore list, this way we save Helen bandwidth.

 

[Mystic]

For everything to work here properly people have to be able to discuss things without being attacked for their viewpoints. People should be able to discuss both their positive and negative experiences with various products.

I rely on what I consider to be facts and also positive personal experience before I use or continue to use a product. For example, I have had very positive experiences with some Lubegard products so I continue to like Lubegard products. There are some other products I am willing to continue to use like Sta-Bil, BG 44K fuel system cleaner, MMO, etc. On the other hand I have said here that I feel somebody can just use quality motor oil, ATF, etc., in a car or truck with reasonable OCIs and have a long lasting vehicle with no additives.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
For everything to work here properly people have to be able to discuss things without being attacked for their viewpoints.


Nice theory, but it falls down when a healty skepticisim is ridiculed.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Mystic
For everything to work here properly people have to be able to discuss things without being attacked for their viewpoints.


Nice theory, but it falls down when a healty skepticisim is ridiculed.


The knife cuts both ways.

In the event you're referring to me, all I did was warn new members what happens when they post positive results w/o data. This battle has been on going.

 

[Mystic]

I don't mind if somebody is skeptical about something, such as an oil supplement. I believe in being skeptical myself until I can see some evidence that the oil supplement really works.

But one thing we could use here is more polite conversation. If somebody believes MMO is worthless then that person does not have to use it. And instead of going after the person who says MMO is great present some evidence that it does not work. I would like to see BOTH positive AND negative discussion about an oil additive without personal attacks on anybody. Who really cares if a guy thinks MMO (or anything else) is great or if somebody thinks MMO is terrible. Some evidence indicating one of the other would be nice. And personal experience where somebody who seems to be honest tells about how MMO has worked for him counts in my book. How else can we test MMO? We don't have millions of dollars to test it in a lab.

I started to believe in Auto-RX when a seal leak stopped after I had done an Auto-RX cleaning. Does that count as possible evidence? I started to believe in Lubegard products in general and Lubegard Power Steering Supplement after I used it in a power steering unit of a car where the power steering unit made noise in cold weather when the car was first started. After I used the supplement the noise stopped forever. Does that count as possible evidence?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I don't mind if somebody is skeptical about something, such as an oil supplement. I believe in being skeptical myself until I can see some evidence that the oil supplement really works.


That's just it. A testimonial or anecdote is not evidence. Those who push things like bitron/synlube/duralube *want* people to accept what they say without question.

The current trend seems to be that we should do just that.

Someone posts that they get a 2mpg increase because they used MMO, and the very next post praises it. What is the basis for such praise? Without any kind of data, even something as dull as a series of mpg readings both before and after, I can only conclude that it's because said product is liked.


If I was to post that I put 5 rounds through the bullseye at 300 yards with my 91/30, without a scope, would the next post be praise? Or would they be skeptical?

The trend of threads like this indicates the former.

Remember this thread? http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1808275&page=1

Why didn't we accept the claims? After all, there is no data. Nothing but claims. Empty ones at that.

 

[Mystic]

Actually in a court of law personal testimony is evidence. The personal testimony of witnesses may be all that people may have to use either to defend a suspect or try to convict that suspect.

Otherwise, to test MMO (or any other oil supplement) we are going to have to hire a lab and pay to have testing done. That would cost a lot of money and therefore that is not going to happen.

So what we have is what people can present here. Perhaps the personal statements of somebody might be backed up by photographs taken before and afterwards. What else do we have for any product people talk about here, regardless if that product is MMO, Auto-RX, Weaponshield, Hoppes No. 9, Breakfree, or whatever? Now of course we can rely on motor oil manufacturers having done testing of their products. But how often do motor oil manufacturers actually release extensive information on their motor oils? We are relying on what they say also. People try endlessly here to try to find out what is the best motor oil. Even UOAs and VOAs may not give us the information we need, because there have been questions brought up about the accuracy of the results.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Remember this thread? http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1808275&page=1

Why didn't we accept the claims? After all, there is no data. Nothing but claims. Empty ones at that.


Because some products are clearly riddled with lies, and anyone with half a brain can figure that out. Compare the amount of satisfied users of Synlube to Amsoil, Red Line, or one of the other boutique oil companies and let me know what you think. A bit of common sense goes a long way.

Then if you are gathering info from Bitog for example, you have to look at the satisfied users of each product. Do they have an agenda, are they credible, or are they first time shills posting here, are they paid to post? Amsoil and RL have a nice following of respected members, they stood the test of time, the positive testimony about the product by respected members has to mean something. If a person needs science and hard core data in order to buy a product so be it, remember most of that data comes from the company itself, funded by the company. I think there might be just a bit bias? Remember a skeptic like myself and others can easily find fault with any data, that's if we want to. Again the knife cuts both ways.

Yes mpg claims are tough to prove. When someone uses a product and hears a ticking lifter stop ticking, pulls a VC from an engine they know was dirty and sees it cleaned up, hears a fuel pump quiet down, does before and after compression tests and sees an improvement, etc., and others had similar results I see merit in the product and it peaks my interest. I've been using MMO before many of the members here were even a twinkle in their fathers eyes, if it didn't work I'd know it by now.

I suggest anyone who doubts anything on this board to do their own homework, if its data that floats their boat and they can't find it DON'T USE THE PRODUCT. If you have a brutally neglected engine in need of a rebuild save your money.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Actually in a court of law personal testimony is evidence. The personal testimony of witnesses may be all that people may have to use either to defend a suspect or try to convict that suspect.

He said "testimonials," not "testimony." But we'll run with it. I actually think it's a good analogy, although not in the way that I think you meant.

"Testimony" is a broad name given to statements made by witnesses on the stand. It does not mean anything that anyone says under oath is considered valid, and it is only accepted until it survives merciless cross-examination. The testimony given must meet the standard of evidence appropriate to the type of case. If any part is not thoroughly plausible and appropriately substantiated, it is rejected. Our justice system depends on this process as part of a system of safeguards to avoid convicting innocent people.

You and demarpaint have said that when a similar kind of analysis is applied to claims made about MMO or other products, it hinders discussion at BITOG. Would you be willing to say that cross-examination hinders the operation of the justice system?

 

[Mystic]

I will back up what demarpaint is saying. I will give an example.

Let us say that somebody new shows up here and says that he has developed a fantastic synthetic oil that can be used for 50,000 miles before changing in an engine. That is his claim. But then some people here who live in Los Vegas where this guy supposedly has a plant to make this oil, go where the plant is supposed to be, and there is nothing there (no motor oil manufacturing plant at any rate). And then somebody else here goes to Google Mapping and finds that there is no motor oil manufacturing plant where it is supposed to be. We have evidence that the guy's fantastic claims may not be true-correct? And don't forget that we are relying on the guys who said they drove to where the plant is supposed to be or used Google Mapping.

But if 1000 guys here have had positive results with MMO, and ten have had negative results, is that not probably reasonable evidence that MMO might work?

How many times do we have actual lab testing here of some oil supplement? It would probably cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to do proper testing. It is not realistic to expect that such a thing will happen.

I have not checked but I believe Tempest is the guy who uses WeaponShield on his gun or guns. When he says that WeaponShield works, that is his personal experience-correct? Just like when demparpaint says that MMO has worked for him in several vehicles over decades of time that is his personal experience. What really do we have here except for people's personal experience, UOAs, VOAs, and maybe some photographs before and after? For products like Redline or Amsoil we have the claims made by the manufacturers. Major motor oils have to met various requirements.

People have to use common sense and decide who they want to believe and who they do not believe. I personally believe that demarpaint is an honest guy. I have never met him, but he seems to be honest and a straight up guy to me. I can't really expect him to pay out $100,000 dollars to have MMO tested in a lab.

And finally, nobody is being forced to use MMO. If you don't believe in it-don't use it. Same thing with Auto-RX, Amsoil, or any other product discussed here. You pays your money and you makes your choices.

I have said repeatedly that I don't think anybody has to use supplements of any kind in a new car or truck. If you use good products, quality motor oil with reasonable OCIs, quality ATF, etc., you should easily be able to go 100,000 miles or more unless the vehicle is somehow defective or a sludge monster. But my personal experience has been that certain supplements seem to work. My personal experience matters to me and I try not to lie to myself. If I don't get any results with a product, I don't continue to use it. If the claims seem too fantastic or I don't believe the people promoting some product, I don't use that product.

Think about it. When it comes to most supplements here all we mostly have is the personal experience of people using the product. And if we disallowed discussion based on personal experience, there would be a whole lot less written here.

 

[demarpaint]

^^ Well said.

^^

Many people come here looking for solutions to problems, and don't have the time, energy, know how, or cash to rip into an engine. Some of us have been down that road and share what works. It's tough to prove 1000's of people who had similar positive results with a product wrong, and that goes for any and all products sharing similar success stories. Then testing is expensive, and as Gary Allan once told me, the people paying for the tests usually get the results they want to see. I totally agreed. I really do miss him!

 

[d00df00d]

If we don't have the means to prove a point, we don't have the right to expect others to believe it.

If a claim can't be substantiated, the appropriate response is to let it lay until better evidence comes along, not to whine that opinions are being suppressed.

If someone doesn't believe something, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or didn't happen. It just means the person hasn't been convinced yet.

It's as simple as that.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If we don't have the means to prove a point, we don't have the right to expect others to believe it.

If a claim can't be substantiated, the appropriate response is to let it lay until better evidence comes along, not to whine that opinions are being suppressed.

If someone doesn't believe something, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or didn't happen. It just means the person hasn't been convinced yet.

It's as simple as that.

 

[Trajan]

Time, energy, know how, or cash to rip into an engine? I don't recall anyone saying they should do that.

But I do recall a post of how MMO increased MPG by 2. And how it was immediately praised. Without any evidence at all.

How much time/energy/knowhow/cash does it cost to keep track of MPG?

Is it beyond anyone's capability to write down their tire pressure? Trip distance. A simple use of basic math to divide such distance by gallons and write that down?

So should I just stop the test I'm doing, post that MMO does nothing, and have it accepted at face value?

Looks that way.