In a situation like this one, I think it's better to "agree to disagree". I can easily see/agree with both sides of the argument. In this case, we all know scientific proof will not be shown. Nothing wrong with wanting it either. Opinions on both sides have been made, there really isn't much more to say.
As to all the discussion about MMO
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Originally Posted By: Mystic
Actually in a court of law personal testimony is evidence. The personal testimony of witnesses may be all that people may have to use either to defend a suspect or try to convict that suspect.
And in a court of law, the "testimony" of that we've seen here would be subject to a merciless cross examination. And said "testimony" would get tossed because it can't be substainiated.
Huge difference between the court of law and the court of BITOG.
Actually in a court of law personal testimony is evidence. The personal testimony of witnesses may be all that people may have to use either to defend a suspect or try to convict that suspect.
And in a court of law, the "testimony" of that we've seen here would be subject to a merciless cross examination. And said "testimony" would get tossed because it can't be substainiated.
Huge difference between the court of law and the court of BITOG.
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I'm still looking for proof the product doesn't work. A handful of people are looking for proof the product works, how about proof to the overwhelming majority of people who had success, let them see proof the product didn't work for them.
We also should let open minded people explore for themselves, not toss hurdles in their way. If enough people have success and positive results let those people share their results to help others. Isn't that what this board is all about? This isn't about MMO, its about products that have worked for others, but don't have "data" backing it up. So far the only data I see posted for anything oil, or otherwise is provided by the company selling the product, and its not very convincing to a skeptic, especially a skeptic knowing who paid for the data.
We also should let open minded people explore for themselves, not toss hurdles in their way. If enough people have success and positive results let those people share their results to help others. Isn't that what this board is all about? This isn't about MMO, its about products that have worked for others, but don't have "data" backing it up. So far the only data I see posted for anything oil, or otherwise is provided by the company selling the product, and its not very convincing to a skeptic, especially a skeptic knowing who paid for the data.
Originally Posted By: panthermike
In a situation like this one, I think it's better to "agree to disagree". I can easily see/agree with both sides of the argument. In this case, we all know scientific proof will not be shown. Nothing wrong with wanting it either. Opinions on both sides have been made, there really isn't much more to say.
Good point Mike, it might be time to lock the thread and tweak the ignore lists.
In a situation like this one, I think it's better to "agree to disagree". I can easily see/agree with both sides of the argument. In this case, we all know scientific proof will not be shown. Nothing wrong with wanting it either. Opinions on both sides have been made, there really isn't much more to say.
Good point Mike, it might be time to lock the thread and tweak the ignore lists.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
We also should let open minded people explore for themselves, not toss hurdles in their way.
Calling critical scrutiny a "hurdle" to exploration is like calling yard work a "hurdle" to maintaining a good garden.
We also should let open minded people explore for themselves, not toss hurdles in their way.
Calling critical scrutiny a "hurdle" to exploration is like calling yard work a "hurdle" to maintaining a good garden.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
We also should let open minded people explore for themselves, not toss hurdles in their way.
Calling critical scrutiny a "hurdle" to exploration is like calling yard work a "hurdle" to maintaining a good garden.
Call it what ever you like. Or better yet, ignore me.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
We also should let open minded people explore for themselves, not toss hurdles in their way.
Calling critical scrutiny a "hurdle" to exploration is like calling yard work a "hurdle" to maintaining a good garden.
Call it what ever you like. Or better yet, ignore me.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The only hurdles being tossed out are aimed at who apply critical scrutiny.
I fail to see why the application of scrutiny is causing such a problem.
Sorry you lost me.
The only hurdles being tossed out are aimed at who apply critical scrutiny.
I fail to see why the application of scrutiny is causing such a problem.
Sorry you lost me.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm still looking for proof the product doesn't work. A handful of people are looking for proof the product works, how about proof to the overwhelming majority of people who had success, let them see proof the product didn't work for them.
I don't have proof that MMO doesn't work in all/most fuel systems, I only tried once in my E430 and the result was negative. I added 8oz MMO into E430 gas tank at gas station then fill up to capacity of 21 gallon. As soon as within 4-5 miles the engine started to run rough, it took 3-4 fill ups to get the engine ran smooth again, MPG seems to suffer a little. I didn't try MMO in fuel system on any other car I have, one bad experience scares me enough to try it again.
But, MMO in oil sump seems to do good job at cleaning and improve MPG a little, it also quiet down engine noise.
I may continue to use MMO in engines, usually add a pint at around 1-2k miles before oil change, but adding MMO to gas tank at every fill up is too much trouble and negative result once is more than enough for me to stop experience it.
I'm still looking for proof the product doesn't work. A handful of people are looking for proof the product works, how about proof to the overwhelming majority of people who had success, let them see proof the product didn't work for them.
I don't have proof that MMO doesn't work in all/most fuel systems, I only tried once in my E430 and the result was negative. I added 8oz MMO into E430 gas tank at gas station then fill up to capacity of 21 gallon. As soon as within 4-5 miles the engine started to run rough, it took 3-4 fill ups to get the engine ran smooth again, MPG seems to suffer a little. I didn't try MMO in fuel system on any other car I have, one bad experience scares me enough to try it again.
But, MMO in oil sump seems to do good job at cleaning and improve MPG a little, it also quiet down engine noise.
I may continue to use MMO in engines, usually add a pint at around 1-2k miles before oil change, but adding MMO to gas tank at every fill up is too much trouble and negative result once is more than enough for me to stop experience it.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm still looking for proof the product doesn't work. A handful of people are looking for proof the product works, how about proof to the overwhelming majority of people who had success, let them see proof the product didn't work for them.
I don't have proof that MMO doesn't work in all/most fuel systems, I only tried once in my E430 and the result was negative. I added 8oz MMO into E430 gas tank at gas station then fill up to capacity of 21 gallon. As soon as within 4-5 miles the engine started to run rough, it took 3-4 fill ups to get the engine ran smooth again, MPG seems to suffer a little. I didn't try MMO in fuel system on any other car I have, one bad experience scares me enough to try it again.
But, MMO in oil sump seems to do good job at cleaning and improve MPG a little, it also quiet down engine noise.
I may continue to use MMO in engines, usually add a pint at around 1-2k miles before oil change, but adding MMO to gas tank at every fill up is too much trouble and negative result once is more than enough for me to stop experience it.
Thanks for sharing, it is info like this that can be helpful to some members!
I actually found that TCW3 makes my Aerostar idle smoother than MMO does. At least as confirmed by two well calibrated butt dynos, mine and my wife's.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm still looking for proof the product doesn't work. A handful of people are looking for proof the product works, how about proof to the overwhelming majority of people who had success, let them see proof the product didn't work for them.
I don't have proof that MMO doesn't work in all/most fuel systems, I only tried once in my E430 and the result was negative. I added 8oz MMO into E430 gas tank at gas station then fill up to capacity of 21 gallon. As soon as within 4-5 miles the engine started to run rough, it took 3-4 fill ups to get the engine ran smooth again, MPG seems to suffer a little. I didn't try MMO in fuel system on any other car I have, one bad experience scares me enough to try it again.
But, MMO in oil sump seems to do good job at cleaning and improve MPG a little, it also quiet down engine noise.
I may continue to use MMO in engines, usually add a pint at around 1-2k miles before oil change, but adding MMO to gas tank at every fill up is too much trouble and negative result once is more than enough for me to stop experience it.
Thanks for sharing, it is info like this that can be helpful to some members!
I actually found that TCW3 makes my Aerostar idle smoother than MMO does. At least as confirmed by two well calibrated butt dynos, mine and my wife's.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The only hurdles being tossed out are aimed at who apply critical scrutiny.
I fail to see why the application of scrutiny is causing such a problem.
Sorry you lost me.
To quote doodfood: "You're the only one who keeps complaining about skeptics and misrepresenting what they're saying."
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The only hurdles being tossed out are aimed at who apply critical scrutiny.
I fail to see why the application of scrutiny is causing such a problem.
Sorry you lost me.
To quote doodfood: "You're the only one who keeps complaining about skeptics and misrepresenting what they're saying."
No not at all. I'm not the one tossing the "data" hurdles, I'm trying to help members see beyond the "data" and think out of the box to solve problems. I have a feeling there are a lot of smart members here that can pick up on that.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The only hurdles being tossed out are aimed at who apply critical scrutiny.
I fail to see why the application of scrutiny is causing such a problem.
Sorry you lost me.
To quote doodfood: "You're the only one who keeps complaining about skeptics and misrepresenting what they're saying."
That's your opinion, that's fine. You have the option to ignore me too. BTW I'm a skeptic too, I believe some data can be flawed, misrepresented, and used to suit someone's needs.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The only hurdles being tossed out are aimed at who apply critical scrutiny.
I fail to see why the application of scrutiny is causing such a problem.
Sorry you lost me.
To quote doodfood: "You're the only one who keeps complaining about skeptics and misrepresenting what they're saying."
That's your opinion, that's fine. You have the option to ignore me too. BTW I'm a skeptic too, I believe some data can be flawed, misrepresented, and used to suit someone's needs.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
"Someone will come along and pick your positive comments about MMO apart, you've been warned!"
Posts such as this say otherwise.
Yep, and another Epic Thread on Bitog!
"Someone will come along and pick your positive comments about MMO apart, you've been warned!"
Posts such as this say otherwise.
Yep, and another Epic Thread on Bitog!
I seriously do not get this massive discussion of people going back and forth at each other. If some people do not believe in MMO-simple answer is not to use the stuff.
But as I said earier and I would like to see somebody challenge this-for most of these oil supplements all we have is personal experience with maybe some additional evidence like photographs. How many detailed lab tests has anybody here seen for ANY oil supplement-name any one. Some of the national advertised oil supplements that show up from time to time have supposed 'lab tests' that I don't think anybody here would accept at face value. Like demarpaint said, whoever pays for the tests gets the results they want.
If we expect intensive lab tests for any oil supplement we are going to discuss here, there is going to be a serious decline in discussion.
Or the answer could be, everybody just stop using supplements. But really, how many people here totally use no supplements of any kind? I still use Stal-Bil in the fuel of my lawnmower. I still use fuel system cleaner in the fuel for my car. I have personally seen some supplements seem to work and I believe my own personal experience. I am not going to lie to myself.
Sometimes I tell myself that I am just going to use gasoline and oil in my lawnmower. But I always wind up using Stal-Bil just to be safe. And I sometimes use MMO in the fuel of my lawnmower. Am I wasting money? I sometimes use fuel system cleaner in the fuel of my car. Am I wasting money?
I trust my own personal experience and I simply have seen results with SOME supplements. Either the stuff worked or it was a heck of a coincidence!
But as I said earier and I would like to see somebody challenge this-for most of these oil supplements all we have is personal experience with maybe some additional evidence like photographs. How many detailed lab tests has anybody here seen for ANY oil supplement-name any one. Some of the national advertised oil supplements that show up from time to time have supposed 'lab tests' that I don't think anybody here would accept at face value. Like demarpaint said, whoever pays for the tests gets the results they want.
If we expect intensive lab tests for any oil supplement we are going to discuss here, there is going to be a serious decline in discussion.
Or the answer could be, everybody just stop using supplements. But really, how many people here totally use no supplements of any kind? I still use Stal-Bil in the fuel of my lawnmower. I still use fuel system cleaner in the fuel for my car. I have personally seen some supplements seem to work and I believe my own personal experience. I am not going to lie to myself.
Sometimes I tell myself that I am just going to use gasoline and oil in my lawnmower. But I always wind up using Stal-Bil just to be safe. And I sometimes use MMO in the fuel of my lawnmower. Am I wasting money? I sometimes use fuel system cleaner in the fuel of my car. Am I wasting money?
I trust my own personal experience and I simply have seen results with SOME supplements. Either the stuff worked or it was a heck of a coincidence!
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Remember this thread? https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1808275/
Why didn't we accept the claims? After all, there is no data. Nothing but claims. Empty ones at that.
Because some products are clearly riddled with lies, and anyone with half a brain can figure that out.
.
Something that only came to light because, wait for it........., we did't accept the posts by its users at face value.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Remember this thread? https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1808275/
Why didn't we accept the claims? After all, there is no data. Nothing but claims. Empty ones at that.
Because some products are clearly riddled with lies, and anyone with half a brain can figure that out.
.
Something that only came to light because, wait for it........., we did't accept the posts by its users at face value.
Yes, don't accept any post at face value. You don't know anything about the person posting. You don't know that person or whatever motives they might have.
But, usually the only evidence we have that a given supplement is good or bad are the PERSONAL EXPERIENCES of the users. So if you decide to use any supplement, regardless if that supplement is Auto-RX, MMO, or anything else-you are probably going to have to look at the personal experiences of the users of that product. You might be willing to try something if a lot of guys have had positive personal experiences. We really cannot expect major lab testing of a lot of these products.
And Trajan-just a question-do you use any supplements? Maybe Stal-Bil in your lawnmower fuel tank or fuel system cleaner? Even major oil companies have supplements. Chevron makes Techron fuel system cleaner, for example.
But, usually the only evidence we have that a given supplement is good or bad are the PERSONAL EXPERIENCES of the users. So if you decide to use any supplement, regardless if that supplement is Auto-RX, MMO, or anything else-you are probably going to have to look at the personal experiences of the users of that product. You might be willing to try something if a lot of guys have had positive personal experiences. We really cannot expect major lab testing of a lot of these products.
And Trajan-just a question-do you use any supplements? Maybe Stal-Bil in your lawnmower fuel tank or fuel system cleaner? Even major oil companies have supplements. Chevron makes Techron fuel system cleaner, for example.
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