As to all the discussion about MMO

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Simply reading something does not make it gospel. In order to fully understand something and to be able to do it correctly we need to think, reflect and challenge the thoughts.


Or have the guts to try it themselves, then report back good or bad. I'm still waiting on the data that says MMO doesn't work. I already said I have NO DATA proving it works, only my experiences dating back to before most of the naysayers were born. I still haven't seen the naysayers data though, only hurdles to muddy the waters and try to stop people from thinking out of the box.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mystic

And Trajan-just a question-do you use any supplements? Maybe Stal-Bil in your lawnmower fuel tank or fuel system cleaner? Even major oil companies have supplements. Chevron makes Techron fuel system cleaner, for example.


IIRC he used A-Rx, didn't he?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
If we expect intensive lab tests for any oil supplement we are going to discuss here, there is going to be a serious decline in discussion.

What's the goal of BITOG?

If it's simply to exchange meaningless chatter about current products, then yes, I can see that being a problem.

If it's to figure out fact from fiction with respect to lubricants and related products, I would think getting rid of the fluff would be the first step.

For my part, when I read the archives, I feel like this site has lost a from the time when people like Tom NJ, Terry, and Doug Hillary were posting REAL info from REAL testing. When they posted their "personal experiences," it wasn't from tossing something in the gas tank and running some numbers at the next gas station; it was from designing and testing real oil formulations or maintaining fleets of vehicles, and actually doing the statistical math to verify what they were seeing. They had access to information and equipment that most of us on BITOG today wouldn't even know how to spell, and they went out on a limb to get objective, verifiable data and post it here for all to see. Eventually, the truly informative posts dropped off; some of those powerhouse members just stopped caring, and others left entirely. That wasn't for no reason. It was because people were completely unable to discern any difference in validity between that hard-won data and someone's poorly written story about his butt dyno. So, yes, I would like to see a good bit of the fluff go away, and for more threads simply to end with "we need better data." Maybe then people with the means and the time can come back and start making real contributions.

But, hey, if all you want to do is shoot the breeze and make people feel good about their testimonials, more power to you.

 

[demarpaint]

It seems there are very few people here with the access to the testing equipment, labs, and staff to produce any real hardcore factual data that a handful of members must have. With that in mind what else is there to keep this site alive, growing, and interesting to so many people? If the mods shut down 37,260 members and let the remaining 9 or so post factual data I wonder what we'd have here? I wonder how successful Bitog would be then? I wonder how many people tried different products such as, filters, oil, grease, etc. Products they learned about here and benefited from, without factual data, only the testimony of someone who used it and had good results?

The chatter isn't meaningless if someone tries something and fixes a problem by pouring something into his gas tank or engine. Or goes against the shop manual thinking out of the box and solves a problem. I see a lot of first time posters asking questions about stopping an oil leak, quieting a lifter, finding a misfire or some other problem, getting an answer and leaving.

There is a wealth of knowledge here, some backed with facts, some with common sense, and a lot of people have benefitted from it. I gotten several PM's from people thanking me after they tried a product, or asking about it. I've sent several thanking members for helping me. Eljefino turned me onto a fix for a leaking oil pan no one will ever see in any book, it worked and saved me a ton of time and $$. I think we have a good community here, I'd hate to see everything have to be backed up with data and facts. Sorry!

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Mystic

And Trajan-just a question-do you use any supplements? Maybe Stal-Bil in your lawnmower fuel tank or fuel system cleaner? Even major oil companies have supplements. Chevron makes Techron fuel system cleaner, for example.


IIRC he used A-Rx, didn't he?


Yep. Zmax as well. Even MMO. And I can not, in good conscious, post anything about the experience. Because I *know* it will be accepted at face value.

Which is wrong. My personal experience has little to no validity beyond me without any data to support it.

Now, I did post that MMO cleaned up a lifter noise. And no one, anyone, questioned it. What I didn't post was that it came back.

I also posted, and I don't remember which forum, that ARX fixed that little problem too. And it stayed fixed until I traded it. (The Z4).

Having said that......

At this moment, I'm one month into a four month test. Nothing spectacular, just to see what effect MMO/ZMax has on MPG. Someone posted they got a 2mpg increase using MMO. And even though it was nothing more than a testimonial, it was accepted as gospel.

And yes, I'm keeping all the data that I can control. Mileage, tire pressure, oil weight, average speed.

But, being how people would rather accept fluff. Or posts at face value. Or posts that fit their own perceptions, I have serious doubts on pursuing it.

Because it is so much easier to post a claim, *knowing* that I won't have to defend it.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The only hurdles being tossed out are aimed at who apply critical scrutiny.

I fail to see why the application of scrutiny is causing such a problem.


Sorry you lost me.

To quote doodfood: "You're the only one who keeps complaining about skeptics and misrepresenting what they're saying."


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...;gonew=1#UNREAD

"but opinions and observations are worthless to many people here."

More like not usefull for anyone who wishes to make an informative decision.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I think we have a good community here, I'd hate to see everything have to be backed up with data and facts.

I'm sorry, but this sentence is still sticking in my head. I honestly don't know how to respond.

 

[FXjohn]

MMO has a cool old looking label and smells good.
Is there any proof that it does anything at all?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: FXjohn
MMO has a cool old looking label and smells good.
Is there any proof that it does anything at all?


You're suppossed to take it on faith alone.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: FXjohn
MMO has a cool old looking label and smells good.
Is there any proof that it does anything at all?

In all honesty, there must be quite a bit. It's just that "OMG I just got 2 more MPG" isn't part of it.

 

[Trajan]

To quote the late Gary Allen from another forum we know as the Zoo.

"Sure. MMO will probably do as you prescribe. But I have no need to adulterate perfectly blended, state of the art lubricants with it. The same objections apply to MMO that some assert do to Auto-Rx. If it's such a good thing, why don't the blenders do it add it themselves? Auto-Rx is a much more elegant product than MMO. Yes, it's surely more expensive, but I feel that you do get what you pay for."

"Feel free to use MMO and get whatever you can out of it. I just can't see tampering with a perfectly good oil to prevent something that should not occur. Auto-Rx, outside of the one natural ester component, is a friction modifier and an ester base stock. In a normal engine, a routine decoking of the rings every 50k-75k works well. In a problem engine, once clean, the maintenance dose would probably be the best way to go.

But as I said, enjoy the benefits of MMO as you perceive them."

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
To quote the late Gary Allen from another forum we know as the Zoo.

"Sure. MMO will probably do as you prescribe. But I have no need to adulterate perfectly blended, state of the art lubricants with it. The same objections apply to MMO that some assert do to Auto-Rx. If it's such a good thing, why don't the blenders do it add it themselves? Auto-Rx is a much more elegant product than MMO. Yes, it's surely more expensive, but I feel that you do get what you pay for."

"Feel free to use MMO and get whatever you can out of it. I just can't see tampering with a perfectly good oil to prevent something that should not occur. Auto-Rx, outside of the one natural ester component, is a friction modifier and an ester base stock. In a normal engine, a routine decoking of the rings every 50k-75k works well. In a problem engine, once clean, the maintenance dose would probably be the best way to go.

But as I said, enjoy the benefits of MMO as you perceive them."


Interesting, we can also say enjoy the benefits of A-Rx, or any other oil or additive as you perceive them. Following that train of thought: No need to adulterate perfectly blended, state of the art lubricants with A-Rx either.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
MMO has a cool old looking label and smells good.
Is there any proof that it does anything at all?


You're suppossed to take it on faith alone.


LOL Try searching the site, and read through the success stories and failures, make a choice based on that. I'll save you some time, don't look for any real factual data you won't find any. In fact I'd love to see some real, unbiased factual data on any of the Bitog favorite additives. Data that skeptics can't lay a glove on, or data the producer of the product didn't pay for................Sometimes faith is all we have.....

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
MMO has a cool old looking label and smells good.
Is there any proof that it does anything at all?


You're suppossed to take it on faith alone.


LOL Try searching the site, and read through the success stories and failures, make a choice based on that. I'll save you some time, don't look for any real factual data you won't find any. In fact I'd love to see some real, unbiased factual data on any of the Bitog favorite additives. Data that skeptics can't lay a glove on, or data the producer of the product didn't pay for................Sometimes faith is all we have.....


What MMO does or does not do is a mystery, thus the name.

One exception to the statement from Gary Allen would be cost. If the cost of Auto-Rx was too high and other additives would be close in what they did then they would not use Auto-Rx as part of the additive package. I actually thought I read a long time ago that some oil company inquired about Auto-Rx, but wanted to add such a tiny amount, that the owner of Auto-Rx dismissed the idea.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
MMO has a cool old looking label and smells good.
Is there any proof that it does anything at all?


You're suppossed to take it on faith alone.


LOL Try searching the site, and read through the success stories and failures, make a choice based on that. I'll save you some time, don't look for any real factual data you won't find any.


Thus why you have to take it on faith alone.

Again, to quote doodfood: "You're the only one who keeps complaining about skeptics and misrepresenting what they're saying."

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
MMO has a cool old looking label and smells good.
Is there any proof that it does anything at all?


You're suppossed to take it on faith alone.


LOL Try searching the site, and read through the success stories and failures, make a choice based on that. I'll save you some time, don't look for any real factual data you won't find any.


Thus why you have to take it on faith alone.

Again, to quote doodfood: "You're the only one who keeps complaining about skeptics and misrepresenting what they're saying."


LOL

Put any kind of spin you like on it, I'm a skeptic myself. Only I realize the data you skeptics want is not available, and if it is it was odds are it was paid for by the company selling the product, AKA probably skewed. So I gather my own info from reliable sources, and people who had similar issues, or experienced similar results. What else is there if you feel data might not be all it's cracked up to be? What's so hard about understanding that? As long as you were quoting Gary, I recall a conversation he and I had, but you being a skeptic you might not believe me. He said something along the lines of, the person paying for the test usually gets the results they want, or keep tweaking the test until you do. Made a lot of sense to me, especially being the skeptic that I am.

 

[mechtech2]

It seems wise to throw out the extreme high complaints, and also the extreme praise.
The 85% left have had good results.

 

[d00df00d]

Based on what?

 

[Darkfire]

I have a question about MMO:

Can MMO be used as a partial oil substitute in a 2-stroke application (141cc B&S R*Tek engine in a snowblower) in the same percentages as with 4 cycle applications--that is 10% to a maximum of 25% of the oil?

Or to put it another way--say I were to use a 32:1 ratio of gas to 2 cycle oil--and instead, I used a 40:1 ratio of the oil itself, and then the remainder of that was MMO to get down to 32:1.

Would this risk more wear than if pure oil itself were used for the entire ratio, and if so--should MMO just be used additively on top of whatever ratio you were using, without diluting the straight oil ratio itself (i.e. use 32:1, but then still add 1 oz MMO per 2.5 gallons on top of that)?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Quest]

Why would you mix MMO with 2-cycle oil? In other words: what are you trying to achieve?

Myself using JASO FC semi-syn 2-cyl oils for my genset and trimmer (Castrol Activo / Esso 2-cyl oil mix) with excellent results and never a single worries about lubricity (lubricity problems with 2-cyl engines typically comes as seized piston(to bore),due to insuffucient lubrication or lubrication breakdown).

Q.